Engineers Seal on a Sketch 5

[nype]

New York State requirements for Engineers seal is a bit vague in describing "In general, all plans, specifications and reports prepared by the professional engineer" are to be sealed by the engineer.
The question is "minor documents" such as a sketch showing alterations to an existing structure that was not professionally designed in the first place. Should it be sealed?
Numerous Code Officials have accepted my letter head and signature as evidence of my authorization, at least one is now demanding the most incidental engineering sealed.
Any Thoughts? ...Engineers...Code Officials?
By minor I'm thinking a window opening in a residential bearing wall, etc.

 

[Ron]

If it comes under the definition in your state law as "engineering" or "engineering works" it should be signed/sealed. I have signed and sealed numerous sketches over the years as they were the result of engineering opinion or redesign.

Their "I gotcha" is the statement "In general....". That leaves the clause open to interpretation (theirs) so if you're willing to stand behind what you did as a licensed engineer, sign and seal it and don't worry about it.

My concern would be that you are providing engineering to a previously "non-engineered" structure. Do you have an obligation to check the adequacy of the structure before you make your modifications? How does your modification affect areas that are not modified?

 

[msquared48]

Picasso settled somne of his debts by signing his signature to restaurant napkins that he had sketched on - paid for a lot of his meals that way.

So I guess some sign sketches...

Personally, I would not do it - a formal drawing stands the trest of time, and court, much better.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[TLHS]

It really all comes down to what your jurisdiction's stamping guidelines say, though.

My opinion, generally, is that if you're intending the document to be used to convey your engineering opinion and want them to actually do something with it it should probably be stamped. I'd prefer that any document I expect the contractor to work from have a stamp on it. It makes them expect it and hopefully will make them ask questions if they get a change and don't see a stamp.

You're still going to end up liable for it either way, so why not make it clear that it's your professional work? Not stamping something doesn't release you from any standard of care. Stamping is supposed to indicate that you're licenced, you stand behind the work, you're satisfied with it and it's your work or you supervised it. If you've done reasonable work, then stamp it. If I'm giving someone a sketch with the intention that they use that to build from, then I have no problem stamping it.

I won't stamp a sketch in pencil, though, for obvious reasons.

 

[charliealphabravo]

I think if you are going to stamp a sketch then the sketch should include some kind of a qualification stating what it is, or is not, for: preliminary, not for permit, not for construction, not valid apart from the complete file of record, conceptual phase, analysis only, 20% Complete, etc. Most technical codes and board rules include a list of minimum plan and engineering document requirements (including non-technical technicalities like name, date, company, address, authorization number) and you wouldn't want a sketch to be interpreted as a formal engineering document (unless it was of course). You can scoff; but the review consultants hired by state boards are rarely the sharpest tools in the shed, to put it mildly, and this is exactly the sort of thing that they would advise. More than once I have seen a state board demand internal calculations and documents from an engineer relating to a case and then charge him with misconduct for not signing and sealing the documents before they were delivered.

 

[TLHS]

Maybe we're interpreting this differently. I'm taking sketch to mean a literal hand sketch and am assuming it's a hand sketch showing actual work to be done, like in the case of a field change where it's something simple, or where you don't have the time to properly draft it.

If by sketch we're using it in the 'preliminary and less formal drawing' sense, then I have different opinions, as the work on it may not be completely engineered or the work may not be final. It depends on the context.

I'm also not sure if I'm reading the original question right, either. I interpreted it to mean that the sketch was showing engineered changes to be made to an un-engineered structure. It's possible npye was saying that it was a sketch documenting some type of arbitrary changes, which had already occurred, that were made to an unengineered structure. In which case it's an as-built record and, at least in my jurisdiction, isn't generally supposed to be stamped. The fact that he would otherwise be authorizing things via letter leads me to believe that it's supposed to be something he's authorizing in his scope as a professional, which would make me believe a stamp is appropriate, but I could be off base.

 

[FSS]

I see no difference between a sketch and a formal drawing. They both do the same thing (express your engineering intent) and therefore need to be sealed.

 

[nype]

Thanks so much guys, probably should have asked this question years ago.
The seemingly greater liability and restrictions on un-sanctioned construction, alteration, additions and etc. appear to be catching up with us.
In Upstate New York even in rural communities it has become much harder for the individual (say, home owner) to just proceed with a construction without formal permits or certified construction documents.
The Lunch bag/napkin sketch that for years has provided an invaluable and inexpensive technical source for at least the builders that know they have a question.......is perhaps obsolete.

I shall resist no longer (hope my E+O Insurance Company feels the same way)

 

[a2mfk]

What's the difference? If you did it, and put it out to the public, you are liable and responsible (check with a lawyer or your E and O insurance). You can be responsible for verbal information, such as directing a GC on site to do something (obviously a no-no).

So you either engineer it, or you don't. Then signing and sealing your sketch is just a 1 minute formality. I've signed and sealed hand drawn sketches with a few qualifying notes for small residential projects.