Ethical Dimela? 2

[SteelPE]

I worked on a project for a client last year that was brought to a construction set of documents and I was paid for those documents through Architect “A”. Architect A had a run in with some shady deals that may result in some jail time for one of the principals and as a result was terminated from the project. They were actually terminated from the project before I was paid and I was quite worried that I wouldn’t be paid on the project (actually had to contact a lawyer about it).

So, 6 months later I received an email from my contact at the company. He is now working for Architect “B”. He said that he was contacted by the owner and would like to know if we would continue on with the construction administration for the project. Our original proposal was for construction documents and construction administration, but the architect was terminated before we could do CA…. and we were paid for only the CD’s.

I have some worries about jumping in this boat again. One worry has to do with all of the shady dealing that went on in the past. Another has to do with what happens if a contractor comes along and proposes a change to the project…….. how is that handled (say changing TJI's to trusses.... or using different sheathing materials)? I would like to complete the project, but there are a lot of questions and I am not quite sure if I am being put into some sort of ethical bind here.

I should also say that the shady dealings with the architect were in direct relation to this specific owner…. But on another project.

How would you handle this.... would you just jump back into the boat again?

 

[dik]

Did the owner terminate the contract, and what were the terms of the termination? It is likely a whole new ballgame, with the old firm being responsible for whatever damages. Any changes would be dealt with as you would with a new contract where you were construction managers/contract administrators or whatever your role.

Is the issue with the other Architect? or the Owner? It generally take two to tango... If problematic, there is no requirement that you take over the previous work... Old contract is gone and a new one would have to be put in place... My $.03.. ($.02US). Should have added... talk to your lawyer to confirm.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[SteelPE]

Issues were between a principle and someone representing the owner and some shady under the table deals that caught the eye of the authorities. Then everyone at the architectural company scattered like rats from a ship.

 

[Celt83]

Drama aside if they are building off of your construction set aren't you still the Engineer of Record for the project? For that reason alone I'd be inclined to go under contract for CA and maybe add in a retainer clause to get some money up front.

My Personal Open Source Structural Applications:

https://github.com/buddyd16/Structural-Engineering

Open Source Structural GitHub Group:

https://github.com/open-struct-engineer

 

[Enable]

It's hard to say what I would do given the description. Sounds like Architect A was involved in bid rigging of a sort in which case there would be no issue accepting the new contract since they wouldn't be in the act. If it was something different maybe my perspective might change.

But to be sure, when it comes to situations like these, there is no better guide than your inner voice. You don't want to get involved in something that'll keep you up at night (even if there is no good reason for that worry). The small pittance that are the CA fees are not worth that kind of aggravation in your life.

On top of that, architects tend to be bad clients so if you want an easy out you can just tell yourself that!

 

[kipfoot]

It's more of a business decision than an ethical decision, in my opinion.

I think it would be perfectly acceptable for you to provide a new proposal for the Const Admin. It would include, I'd think, some fee for revising the CD set to the preferences of the Architect B, even though the project architect may be the same person. I might increase the number of site visits just to keep a better eye on the project, given your unease with the owner. You might tighten up your payment terms, too.

Other changes to the project would be similar to every other project where a contractor suggests a 'better' way to do it.

I'm sure they don't want to find a new engineer to do it, someone who will want to start over from the beginning. It seems to be a good way to establish your working relationship with Architect B. Project architects changing firms has been one of my best marketing strategies over the years.

 

[1503-44]

No ethics question, but I think you already know what to do. That's what the first experience was all about.

 

[Rabbit12]

Maybe I'm alone in this thought process but I don't see the ethical dilemma here as long as this is a totally new contract. You are still the EOR on the project so any changes requested during construction should be relatively easy for you to verify if they are acceptable.

I'd be more concerned if the EOR was someone other than you and had been caught up in the shady things. IMO that's when changes during construction get a little hairy.

 

[Enable]

Rabbit12: I don't see it as an ethical dilemma at all. I see it as one where the OP needs to ask themselves if they are comfortable working on the project given the past circumstances (mileage may vary). If yes, pass GO and collect CA fees. If no, issue a memorandum to the owner/architect/building authority that they are no longer the EOR for the project.

 

[Rabbit12]

Enable, why would SteelPE remove himself from being EOR? The shady dealings weren't on this project and he took it through design and got paid. I see no indication the "owner/client" is trying to make changes or do something that would warrant such a drastic step.

 

[dik]

kipfoot summed it up pretty good... it's nice if you can continue with the project since you are EOR... else you have to send a letter to the new owner and architect as well as the building department that you have no involvement with it and you have not been retained to undertake any construction review. I don't know if you can ask if your name can be removed as EOR since you have no involvement.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Enable]

Rabbit: Refer to my post above last where I indicate I probably wouldn't have an issue. However, just because I wouldn't have an issue / would feel comfortable doesn't mean that someone else would. And at the end of the day if someone has an inner voice that is telling them not to do something, even if there is little visible justification, they should follow that so they can sleep well at night.

I see this as no different than the situation where you are deciding if you should accept a proposed detail change where you cant find anything wrong with the proposal but for some reason are just not comfortable with it (there is some nagging feeling that you are missing something and we will end up replaying the Hyatt); I would heed the nagging feeling 100% of the time even if I had no analytical justification. This is not a universal principle but rather a personal one.

 

[KootK]

1) From an ethical perspective, I would seek to remain involved in the project as I feel that gives it the best chance of being a success and, therefore, enhancing the public good.

2) From a business perspective, I would probably seek to exit for fear of not getting paid or getting assoicated with other sketchy stuff. That, unless I really saw some future work potential with the new group that outweighed these things.

3) Since ethics weighs more than business in my mind, I'd lean towards:

a) Seek to remain involved.

b) Ask for 25%-50% of your CA up front if these are people who've never paid you for anything before.

c) Re-evaluate any continuing relationship with the new group after the one project is done.

3) I'm not claiming that it's unethical to not see the project through but, rather, that it is more ethical to see the project through if that is feasible.

 

[phamENG]

The only ethical consideration would be if you think the project architect has carried the shady business with him and you think it will continue. If so, then stay away. Otherwise, pick it up and run with it.

I had an interesting situation recently that was somewhat similar: I was the project engineer for a firm doing a large project. The project stalled and wasn't finished, and I left the firm to go work elsewhere. Eventually, I started my own shop and got a call from another engineer in the area about it. Turns out the architect had fired my former employer and hired this other engineer, who then subbed a portion of the structural work to me to finish the project. So I got to be the the project engineer for the whole thing after all. Besides the potential for some hurt feelings, I didn't see it as an ethical thing at all.

 

[EZBuilding]

Seems like a good opportunity to re-negotiate an improved Construction Administration Fee, including the fee of your attorney to review your prior contractual obligations and guide you with a new contract with your new client.

 

[SteelPE]

So just to wrap this up. I decided to stay away from the project. I just had too many questions and didn't have any answers and Architect B needed an answer ASAP. I would have liked to stay on just to keep continuity, but with a new architect I am not sure which direction the project would have taken.

I was never officially terminated by Architectural Company A.... so I don't know exactly what that means if Architectural company B wants to bring us on board for CA and such.

The whole thing is a mess that I didn't create..... and I was incredibly irked back in December when I found out my contact, who brought me in to work on the project, jumped ship a month earlier when the SHTF with the shady business. I was left with no real contacts at the company and no real avenue to see if I would get paid other than by contacting a lawyer (who told me it wouldn't be easy to get my money back as the contract was not large and therefore it might not be worth it).

 

[Celt83]

Make sure you get with an attorney and follow through on an official letters you need to send out to notify the AHJ that you are no longer serving as the Engineer of Record. If your stamp is on the drawings they are building off of you have legal exposure regardless of any letters you send out.

My Personal Open Source Structural Applications:

https://github.com/buddyd16/Structural-Engineering

Open Source Structural GitHub Group:

https://github.com/open-struct-engineer

 

[Enhineyero]

I would have done the same SteelPE. I think the real question is "do I want to work with shady people?". Do I want to be stressed and worry working with shady people? probably not, its not like we are making gajillion dollars for each project. No sir, I'll stick with my peanuts and be at peace.

 

[dik]

Glad that you posted your closure... doesn't happen often.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik