ethics of filing complaint 2

[struct_eeyore]

I have a buddy who is a contractor, and whom I will occasionally visit informally to shoot sh_t, and discuss projects locally. Last weekend he showed me a set of plans his company did for a local residence during a conversation. Coastal house (VE), very fancy, 2 story - but when I saw the foundation, the first thing that popped is that the whole thing sits on a few pilasters built up from 8x16 block - the house itself is wood frame, so these things are at cantilevering out of the grade beams. I recently did a residence near by, and just the coastal flood (breaking wave, velocity, impact) easily pushed me to use solid concrete columns (similar cantilevered design), with a much tighter spacing. Now, granted, I did not sit there and calculate his design, but I would be that if I did, I would find that this building is going to collapse well below the design storm (we are on the Gulf). The plans themselves were signed by an architect, so that makes me even more anxious that proper design was not done. I have no previous vendetta against the guy who singed this; however, sometime in the next couple of weeks I plan to run a number to check that the house is in fact grossly under-designed - what next? Should I file a complaint with the county? State architecture board? Forget about this?

 

[SteelPE]

This is my $0.02 and I'm sure others will not agree.

You are putting yourself in the middle of a sticky situation there. At this point you suspect something is wrong and you don't know something is wrong (I think this is key). You have not been contracted to do any work on the project so any time you spend is going to basically be a free service and you may end up spending a ton of time arguing and defending your position. A courtesy call to the registered design professional to explain your concern might go a long way vs calling the board. Although that would not be an easy call to make.

Now, if you know something is wrong (like you know you have a W8x10 supporting a moment of 500 ft-k) then that is a different story. In this instance I would still call the RDP, and then notify the local inspector at a minimum.

 

[Lomarandil]

You're aware of a design that in your engineering judgement poses a possible to likely threat of endangering people.

Sounds like ethical obligation to report to me.

First, take it to the architect and give them the chance to own up to it, if at all possible.

If that doesn't result in anything productive, I'd definitely take it to the AHJ that controls the permits and certificate of occupancy.

I can see arguments both ways, but I probably wouldn't escalate to the state architecture board unless the architect's response is entirely unreasonable.

----
just call me Lo.

 

[struct_eeyore]

Well, you see, the situation may be even stickier than it appears - the whole thing is built! House is valued over 1 mil. I will do my best to get a hold of the architect, but from previous experience, I have never seen anyone openly admit fault - a litigation brought about by the owner as a result of actual damage is the only way I've seen this proceed.

 

[rb1957]

Should your friend have shown you the plans ? Is an NDA in place ??
Maybe have your friend approach the design team about your concerns ?
Maybe an anonymous "whistle-blower" call to the local licensing folks ? You're not saying anything is Wrong, just looks suspicious. Mind you, if you or your firend approach the design team first, and then the licensing folks come knocking, well I'm sure that even architects can put one and one together … could that expose you ??

Like SteelPE says right now you Know little but have worries. You have (I presume) nothing to gain (personally, financially) with this issue (so your complaint is not self-serving).

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

What if an anonymous engineer were to walk by the house and express his gut feeling concerns to the local building control?

Then its not personal, you don’t have to do any design work and your conscience is clear if this ever were to fail catastrophically.

 

[struct_eeyore]

I think the anonymous suggestions hit the spot.

 

[BAretired]

I don't believe you can ethically remain anonymous if you're writing a letter to the AHJ about an existing building. You should express your gut feeling without anonymity.

BA

 

[WARose]

Are you sure this thing is in front of the CCL line (or whatever they call it in Florida these days)? If not, it might not get breaking waves.

Another thing to check is: is it under Florida's residential code? If so, it should be a simple matter to check (if it is behind the CCL line) as to if it meets requirements.

 

[Tmoose]

"Last weekend (my buddy) showed me a set of plans his company did for a local residence during a conversation."

What kind of inspections were done, or could be done now?
If something bad does happen, I see your friend's workmanship being called into question immediately.
That would be more incentive to me to do "something" now.

What are the details of the block construction ?

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/warehouse/v1.0/publiccontent/35ff627e-3876-41b4-876a-68d8aa696bac

http://bwncy.com/g/2/fo/foundation-...tor-talk-how-far-apart-are-piers-1080x529.jpg

https://www.thenaturalhome.com/drystackblock/

 

[struct_eeyore]

Inspections were likely very lax - the residential inspectors from the county, in my experience, really only check to see that the construction resembles what is on plans - and the plans review boards are so busy here, they don't really care about the small stuff, most of it just gets streamlined through w/o much attention (really curious how much damage the next hurricane will bring). I have no intention talking about this to the review board before I do an analysis, at least on the pilasters, as at this point I am busy enough myself that I cannot follow through on opening up a can of worms - then again, what is my legal obligation here if I am really only opining w/o definitive #'s? I will bring up the workmanship question to the construction company directly when and if what I deem is the problem materializes - maybe the friend can bring it up as he is more directly invested.

 

[JAE]

This is in Venezuela?

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[struct_eeyore]

close, FL.

 

[skeletron]

I agree with @SteelPE and the process described.

When Professional A reviews Professional B's work, Professional A should notify B that the review is taking place. Since you are not "reviewing" per say, I would either:
-Arm yourself with basic numerical evidence so that you can talk about something quantitative, which is less subjective
-Prepare yourself for a difficult conversation
-Acknowledge their position/assumption/etc

If the conversation is a slog to get through and inconclusive, you might want to take it further.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

1) Coastal house (VE)...
...the whole thing sits on a few pilasters built up from 8x16 block... so these things are at cantilevering out of the grade beams.

2) I recently did a residence near by, and just the coastal flood (breaking wave, velocity, impact) easily pushed me to use solid concrete columns (similar cantilevered design)...

Stay out of this, you don't have enough information and you are on pretty shaky territory yourself:

1) While FEMA 499 does not recommend masonry piers and grade beams in the V zones, they are allowed... if the cores of the blocks contain sufficient rebar and are grouted solid. Maybe the drawings that you saw don't show the rebar / grout. Are there notes elsewhere that require rebar / grout?

2) Do you really want to have your design reviewed (by the architect's lawyers) with the intent of casting doubt on your credibility:

Per FEMA, driven piling are recommended for the V zones. Grade beams / cast in place columns are allowed... but are potentially not much different than the design you are criticizing:

If you are still compelled to do something, quietly look up the architect's credentials on-line to see how long they have been licensed. If "not long" maybe you should cautiously proceed. If a "long time", stay quiet.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[struct_eeyore]

@Slide, I have no intention of pursuing anything without quantifiable proof. I am asking, because, at this point, I highly suspect that I will discover that egregious design omissions have been made. As far as FEMA is concerned - my interpretation would be that the code prescribed forces still have to be met, regardless of the structural system employed. Also, I do not believe that the threat of having ones designs reviewed should prevent one from speaking up against malpractice, nor should someone who has been practicing for a long time be exempt from scrutiny - I have now seen a number who, I would argue due to overconfidence, design by "feel" - works for some, but often intuition is not always on point.

 

[KootK]

I come bearing a message of hope. I think that you should not only take it up with the architect but that you should make it your goal to turn the architect into a client of yours. Almost anything can be said to almost anybody with the right tools and ego management. And, clearly, the architect has a legitimate business problem that you can help them to solve.

As an aside, the book below is the only reason I'm getting somewhat decent haircuts these days.

 

[JAE]

the book below is the only reason I'm getting somewhat decent haircuts these days.

OK now you reminded me of Zig Zigler who once described going to an ice cream shop with his wife one day. Sitting there they observed a young man come into the shop to order and he had large purple spiked hair and multiple piercings.

Zig got a bit disgusted with the young man and his wife tried to calm him a bit. He answered his wife: "I'm not upset by his appearance per se. I'm upset at his choices. I would go to war and risk my life to secure for this young man his freedom to have any kind of haircut, tatoo, piercings he desires....but I wouldn't ever offer him a job."



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[KootK]

Ha! Back in 2010 I developed some guidelines that I would bring to all of my haircuts and that I felt would surely solve my asymmetric hair problems. Of course, in retrospect, I can see how treating people like thoughtless idiots and telegraphing my own insanity was not the way to go. It may have actually made my haircuts worse. It wasn't until last year, when I sat my guy down for "the chat", that I really started to see improvement. Per the book, I needed to take care to create a "safe space" in which my barber would be receptive to hearing that his work sucked, he was in danger of losing a high tipping regular and that, in fact, he was not a good listener. So far so good. Although he may just be biding his time. If I disappear from Eng-Tips suddenly, start the search in the vicinity of the Springbank barber shop.

 

[JStephen]

It reminds me of the old trick where you put a paper bag full of dog poo on the person's porch, set it afire, ring the doorbell and run, in hopes that they come out and start stomping. Well, the poo is on your porch, so tread carefully.

Anyway, some questions to ponder on this:
-Is there actually a building code applicable to the area in question?
-Do the state engineering regulations (or building code) require that design of this house involves a PE?
-Do you have a reasonable assurance that the construction is inadequate, or just a general feel that this is the case?
-Do you want to make the house safe or want to punish the substandard designer? Or both? That's two different issues at this point.
-Is this a "public safety" item, given that the area would likely be evacuated in the event of a hurricane anyway?

It seems to me that if you start contacting the authorities saying "There is an existing house that I feel may be inadequately designed per the current standards", they will be happy to point out about a half-million other houses that fit that criteria.

As a kid growing up near the coast, I remember them pointing out this one particular beach house that did NOT get blown away in the last hurricane- the rest did. They were treated as expendable to an extent.