Ethics of Job Offers 4

[Binary]

I'd like to get some feedback WRT ethics of employment offers.

I recently went through several rounds of interviews and testing. Finally, I was brought back to corporate for a final round of interviews. At the end of the day the manager gave me an offer letter and his home phone number and said "Give me a call if you've got any questions."

That was Friday. On Sunday evening I sent him an e-mail thanking him and expressing my excitement about the position, and also asking hime to consider increasing the offer amount to come closer to the median salary in this area. I gave him several reasons why I thought it was justified and then closed by again expressing optimism about the opportunity.

When I'd heard no response three days later I sent a follow-up e-mail just to confirm receipt of the original. I received a call from HR saying they were looking into it. The following Monday I received a call from HR saying that they were rescinding the offer because the President had yanked the authorization.

So, what do you think? This seemed like a pretty poor way to treat somebody, especially given that the manager never contacted me but just passed it off to HR.

Any thoughts regarding the ethics of this situation?

 

[TheTick]

IMHO, the offer is the culmination of the negotiation process, with nothing left to do but accept or reject. Any attempt to better your position reopens negotiation and thus voids the offer.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open hearted.

 

[Ron]

Binary,
The employer's actions were not professional, but I'm not sure they would violate any ethics considerations, since the President made the decision as a business proposition.

In my opinion, it was unprofessional of the company not to come back to you and even deny the request but keep the offer open. You could still accept or reject the offer at that point. Further, it was not improper for you to raise the question, since you couldn't have raised that point until the offer was made.

Their actions gave you a glimpse at their bureaucratic decision process. Count your blessings and move on to the next one!

 

[Focht3]

Ron's right - probably not the best working environment. Sounds like a "my way or the highway"-type operation, with little room for personal or professional growth. Garth Brooks sings a song titled, "Thank God for Unanswered Prayers." Hard to accept or understand right now, but you will probably be grateful later.

To avoid this in the future, go prepared with a salary expectation and communicate it with your interviewer. Be prepared to explain how you arrived at the figure - and why you're worth every cent.

Keep hunting - good luck!

 

[TheTick]

Every time I got a job, I got the salary I asked for.

Dagnabbit! It must mean that I keep lowballing myself. I've never had an offer come back with less than I asked for. However, I do have a pretty good idea of what my work will get in my local job market, so my salary targets are usually not extraordinary.

 

[plasgears]

The sequence of events should have been:
- offer letter, sometimes lower than your expectations from the interview;
- your counter-offer for more money, split the difference;
- final offer;
- accept.

This is the way the game is played. From the interview they already know your expectations. It's easier when you have an agent working the go-between.

 

[buzzp]

It is the nature of the business man to bring someone in as low as possible. I was lucky enough to get two offers at the same time with no talks about salary (7 yrs exp.). I did tell both that I had other interviews hoping they would offer the max for the position. I turned one down and they called me the same day I was starting with my new employer to increase the offer by a little more than 10% and to offer a signing bonus. I was disappointed they did not do this before. I did not want to quit a job that I had only worked at for a week. Employers should offer the maximum up front if they really want someone to avoid filling the position with someone less than ideal. This will never happen though.

 

[electricpete]

That is quite a story, Binary.

A classy way to do business? Definitely not.

Basis for lawsuit? Ask a lawyer. I would think for a cash award you would have to show some damages which probably are not much. You might also seek to compell them to honor the offer and hire you but that would not be a good way to begin a new job.

It is natural to wonder about the actual cause of the withdrawal. Certainly you have laid the groundwork for the presumption that it was related to your e-mail. It may now be self-evident, but delicate discussions should almost never be conducted by e-mail. But if your simple e-mail was enough to make him withdraw an offer, he probably is not worth working for.

It is also possible that other events completely unrelated to your e-mail played a role. Maybe another candidate who previously declined has now accepted. Maybe a valued ex-employee called up to ask for work and is preferred. Maybe a contract was cancelled.

 

[ICman]

electricpete has a point. It may not have been your counter-offer that caused them to recind the offer.

I've had something very similar happen to me more than once - from both sides of the fence. Jacobs Engineering sent me an offer on a Thursday, but took it away when they lost the project on Monday. I didn't even get a chance to "negotiate".

I once sent an offer to an engineer, just to turn around and recind it due to business reasons (lost a major customer and management was starting a layoff list). However, at least I called the guy as soon as I found out.

So, don't feel bad Binary, it probably had nothing to do with your request for more money.

 

[RDK]

I don’t know what the labour laws are in your jurisdictions but in Manitoba anyone can be fired for any reason or no reason in the first six months without any notice or within the first year with two weeks notice of pay. After that you are protected and can only be fired for cause. If you have true managerial responsibilities (not just a managerial title) you can be terminated at any time for any or no reason. I would imagine that there are similar provisions elsewhere.

Unless you could show that the offer was made in bad faith, ie an attempt to harm you in some manner, you would have no recourse if you reported for work on Monday morning and were out of a job by lunch.. This would apply even if you quit stable employment elsewhere or moved for the new position.

You are better to have an offer rescinded before you become invested in the new job and cannot return to the new one.

Whether or not it had anything to do with the request for more money or not, I would think that simple good manners would be to have told you that the offer was being rescinded for XXX reason. XXX could be any of reasons speculated to in previous posts. (lack of work, the money request, another candidate was selected etc)



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[IRstuff]

I think that it was rude, but not much beyond that. Since you had not officially accepted, they shuold be free to cancel their offer, but they should have been a little more circumspect. After all, they might need to go to you for a job in the future. Burning bridges, either way, are poor things to do.

Additionally, aren't you glad that you didn't wind up working for such an inconsiderate and rude person?

TTFN

 

[PM]

There seems to be some confusion concerning the law of contract. Contracts are created when certain conditions are met, including offer, acceptance, consideration, lawful object and competence. Offers are open for acceptance until they are revoked or they expire (ie. if a deadline is applied by the offeror). Any counteroffer rejects the previous offer.

So the point is, that the offeror did not revoke his offer, . . . it was rejected as part of a counteroffer.

Regards,
PM

 

[Binary]

PM, you're wrong about that. I never counteroffered...before giving an answer one way or the other, I simply said "Before giving you an answer I'd like to get some additional deatails about xyz. I'd also like to ask you to consider..."

By my definition, that's not a counteroffer.

None of this really matters, though.

 

[electricpete]

Interesting suggestion (as first raised by TheTick) that the offer may be negated since your email might be viewed as an attempt to negotiate (counteroffer). I certainly don’t know the answer, but it sounds like it’s open to interpretation.

Let’s say you are buying a house. You submit a written offer of $100k

You receive a written response from the seller saying: “We are very excited about the prospect of you buying our house. The mean selling price for a comparable 4-bedroom, 3 bath in this area is $120k. And most of those comparable homes don’t even have a swimming pool like ours.”

Whose turn is it to respond now?

 

[melone]

It sounded like a counter offer to me....

 

[Binary]

OK, it sounds like maybe I inadvertently counter-offered. The question is, then, is there any way to discuss compensation after an offer without counter-offering?

For me, my intention was to accept the job but I wanted to see if they would consider making the compensation more competetive.

Perhaps a casual phone conversation??

Or, once the offer is on the table is it too late to discuss compensation without giving up the offer in hopes of a better one?

I've always been told that you don't discuss compensation until they bring it up or you have an offer. Perhaps there's a better way. That's always worked for me in the past, though.

I do, to some degree, agree with the posters above stating the "maybe you're better off looking elsewhere."

If I weren't so unhappy where I am it would've been easier to stomach. At least I have a job (of sorts).

 

[brad]

I would say a casual phone conversation is the only way (and maybe that's not even open).

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too--either you're accepting the job, or suggesting a counteroffer. I went through a similar thing during my first job. I knew for fact that the local HR person had lowballed me relative to corporate hiring practices. However, I was technically renegotiating by calling them on this. I conferred with my manager-to-be, who said he wouldn't rescind the offer (I explained the situation to him and asked him for advice).

I then played chicken with the HR people. They threatened that they could revoke the original offer, but ultimately they blinked and gave me the "correct" offer.

But when HR and your manager are one and the same . . .

Brad

 

[melone]

When you ask the question, you imply that you want to know the answer. If it isn't important enough to make a decision on, don't ask the question.

 

[electricpete]

20/20 hindsight - the exact same communication could have taken place verbally with very little risk.

I think that a small degree of negotation after the offer is very common. There might possibly be discussion of starting date, vacation, signing bonus, base pay etc. I have done it many times myself. I have only gotten any benefit in once case.... I told them the early start date would cause a hardship and they added signing bonus.

One way to approach the conversation would be: I have not made up my mind yet, but I know I would accept if you added xyz. If they try to pin you down on whether you are rejecting the original offer in favor of your "counteroffer", then tell them you really haven't made up your mind, but with the extra concession, the decision would be easy. To be effective, the discussion has to take place early within the time period that they have allowed you for acceptance. There is slight inducement for them to comply because it removes their uncertainty and moves things forward.

 

[IRstuff]

I think that you're overthinking the issue. Since you had not actually accepted, they were indeed free to withdraw the offer. Your counter-offer or lack thereof might have had nothing to do with it.

Case in point. I started working at a company on a Monday. Wednesday, there was a welcoming party for the new employees, numbering around 12. Friday, half the division, both old and new employees were laid off. Rude? yes, unethical? no, stupid on their part? most definitely.

TTFN