Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
-
Congratulations waross on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Ethics of MBE & WBE 6
- Thread starter PMR06
- Start date
-
1
- #2
Unless someone wants all to believe that prejudice and discrimination is completely eradicated or absent, such measures are necessary evil for an imperfect society.
Qualifications are still required. Just there is a small % of work that is set aside. Someone still has to do the rest of the work and get that work.
If someone can't get the remaining 90-95% of the work, why bother for 5-10%?
Where does the ethic come in play?
Rafiq Bulsara
Qualifications are still required. Just there is a small % of work that is set aside. Someone still has to do the rest of the work and get that work.
If someone can't get the remaining 90-95% of the work, why bother for 5-10%?
Where does the ethic come in play?
Rafiq Bulsara
-
1
- #3
I think here in the US we are in the post racial/sexist period. I think its time to abolish these types of discrimination designed to keep those that were at one time discriminated against down and at a disadvantage. Now with our enllightened culture its clear that those kinds of things simply served to keep those folks at a disadvantage by offering a charitable hand. Now I believe people across the board see that the only barriers to success is the fear or willingness to work hard and be successful.
-
2
- #4
I think the apologists have brilliantly devised a campaign to attack affirmative action, and have done nothing but promote the status quo of residual discrimination.
Now, no one needs to do anything about discrimination, since we're "post" discriminatory and we've abolished it; yet, nothing's changed for the underemployed and undereducated. There's now even talk about going back to segregated schools, because the "integrated" schools apparently pull down white achievement, and we can't have that, can we?
The notion that all affirmative action did was to create a class of lazy minorities simply reinforces the notion that minorities are prone to being lazy.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Now, no one needs to do anything about discrimination, since we're "post" discriminatory and we've abolished it; yet, nothing's changed for the underemployed and undereducated. There's now even talk about going back to segregated schools, because the "integrated" schools apparently pull down white achievement, and we can't have that, can we?
The notion that all affirmative action did was to create a class of lazy minorities simply reinforces the notion that minorities are prone to being lazy.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
The types of government funded contracts that have MBE/DBE/WBE quotas attached to them exist for the prime purpose of moving money out of the the government coffers back into public hands.
Small businesses - as most *BEs are - do this more effectively than large corporations.
Small businesses - as most *BEs are - do this more effectively than large corporations.
Well, that's the illusion, of course. I mean, no large company would ever sub to a *BE just to get a contract, would they? Obviously, there are legitimate awards to deserving companies, but abuses do exist.
In any case, if not for those policies, I might never see a non-Asian in engineering circles.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
In any case, if not for those policies, I might never see a non-Asian in engineering circles.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Really IR? In my limited experiance I believe all those who do the hire and fire thing in engineering are way more interested in getting the right person to fit the position than haveing a concern for race or sex. I think all my "bosses" seem to be way more enlightened in that way than myself even. So asian, of color, female.....show up with the qualifications to get the job your gonna get it. To be sucked into the descriminatory excuses offered by the outdated supposed leaders (Al freakin Sharpton)of the past only serves to keep those repulsive ideas alive.
livingston
Mechanical
par060: What country/world do you live in again? The only thing that has changed is whether the racism/sexism is overt or covert. The truth is that it is easier for a person in the position to hire (read white male most often) someone like them than someone not like them. It is more comfortable and they feel that they can relate to the person.
Well, no, they wouldn't.
On contracts with required *BE content the required percentage is identified in the RFP package, and everybody's bids will say "we will meet the required *BE percentage". Everybody is playing to the same rules in that regard.
The pool of *BE companies is relatively small for any given contract, so the same company is probably listed in more than one major's bid.
I'm in the U.S. Yes your correct those persons are white and male. That is a function of the population. The majority of the population is white. I believe the majority of the working population could also be white and male. So it should not be thought of as an indication of racism/sexism if those in leadership positions are mostly male and white. It will simply be a matter of time before those positions are in an equally weighted distribution. That time will shorten considerablly once the real problem of unequipt people take on the task of parenting. The ease of obtaining financial resources is making this difficult. As Ben Franklin said "We need to make sure the poor are uncomfortable in poverty". Taking this approach we uplift rather than keep down.
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
I don't believe a single company I've worked at to date (both large and small) have ever shown a problem with hiring strictly white males... they hire whomever appears to have the proper talent, regardless of sex, race, or language(s) currently spoken (with the last one being a bit of a problem when it comes time to interface).
Dan - Owner
Dan - Owner
Also remember that the set asides are not only for the minority or women owned businesses nor they are for a large company owned by minorities or women.
They also apply to small businesses, owned by anyone including the individuals of majority. The MBE and WBE has to be a small business to begin with to be an MBE or WBE. Along the same line preferences are also given to veterans, who are not necessarily 'minority' by race.
Theses measures are designed to help start ups and disadvantaged.
Do not get me wrong, I have lived in different parts of the world and I vouch that United States is the best place on the planet to live and it is one the fairest and most accommodating society. Although, that does not mean that it is perfect.
Rafiq Bulsara
They also apply to small businesses, owned by anyone including the individuals of majority. The MBE and WBE has to be a small business to begin with to be an MBE or WBE. Along the same line preferences are also given to veterans, who are not necessarily 'minority' by race.
Theses measures are designed to help start ups and disadvantaged.
Do not get me wrong, I have lived in different parts of the world and I vouch that United States is the best place on the planet to live and it is one the fairest and most accommodating society. Although, that does not mean that it is perfect.
Rafiq Bulsara
livingston
Mechanical
I did not say that white males were the only ones hired. I simply said that it is easier for like to hire like therefore some consideration has to be given to balance the work force. The person hired still has to be qualified for the position/job but given the option of hiring someone that you think you can relate to that is qualified verses someone you think you cannot who is also qualified, who would you most likely hire?
For some reason, people continue to refuse to believe there is discrimination at all sorts of levels. Even within the white population, it's been demonstrated that more attractive, taller, whites are hired in preference over less attractive, shorter whites.
When even something as trivial as facial features can a factor, how can skin color not be a factor?
TTFN
FAQ731-376
When even something as trivial as facial features can a factor, how can skin color not be a factor?
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Twoballcane
Mechanical
"To be sucked into the descriminatory excuses offered by the outdated supposed leaders (Al freakin Sharpton)of the past only serves to keep those repulsive ideas alive. "
Do you have something against "Mr Al Sharpton"? From this comment you sound like you’re from NYC or suburbs. I do agree that his tactics are over the top; however, he does speak the ugly truth where nobody else would. Things like ( where a high school would rather cancel a whole prom just because a student would like to bring their partner to the event. I’m sure there are other closed minded moves in and around the USA. But, I do have to agree that we have come a long way since Martin Luther King, however discrimination may never be overcome. That is why I believe in affirmative action. If Irish discrimination was still in practice, I'm sure many Irish would appreciate the civil rights fight we continue to this day.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
Do you have something against "Mr Al Sharpton"? From this comment you sound like you’re from NYC or suburbs. I do agree that his tactics are over the top; however, he does speak the ugly truth where nobody else would. Things like ( where a high school would rather cancel a whole prom just because a student would like to bring their partner to the event. I’m sure there are other closed minded moves in and around the USA. But, I do have to agree that we have come a long way since Martin Luther King, however discrimination may never be overcome. That is why I believe in affirmative action. If Irish discrimination was still in practice, I'm sure many Irish would appreciate the civil rights fight we continue to this day.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
IR,
It's not that I don't believe it exists, I just find that it probably exists on a grander scale in terms of communication ability rather than gender/race. I may lean more towards the physically attractive person, all other things being equal, if not consciously then subconsciously. Given an ugly duckling who can communicate well versus a swan who fumbles their words or doesn't speak the local language well (thick accents come into play here), I'm going with the ugly duckling every time (even in sales positions... an ugly duckling can get over a customer's initial gut flinch reaction with a quality sales pitch).
Dan - Owner
It's not that I don't believe it exists, I just find that it probably exists on a grander scale in terms of communication ability rather than gender/race. I may lean more towards the physically attractive person, all other things being equal, if not consciously then subconsciously. Given an ugly duckling who can communicate well versus a swan who fumbles their words or doesn't speak the local language well (thick accents come into play here), I'm going with the ugly duckling every time (even in sales positions... an ugly duckling can get over a customer's initial gut flinch reaction with a quality sales pitch).
Dan - Owner
mauricestoker
Mechanical
From the government side, having worked in contracting, construction and engineering offices, up to agency chief engineering,based strictly on experience, I am a strong believer in the need for economic set asides. While these have obvious benefits from start-up incubation to social justice, the experience I've had with pride in ownership, d hard work toward developing repeat business, and graduating from the program has been outstanding.
I see the benefit to the government very clearly. Will we do business with only giant existing firms, or should we be concerned with competition in the future? I don't think that waiting for large firms to mentor small firms will give effective results.
Biggest problems I've encountered in about 20 years are large, seemingly reputable firms creating or propping up phony companies to pursue set asides, and bundling to circumvent set aside requirements.
If you think racism, sexism and jingoism no longer exist, maybe you should watch the teabaggers in the news.
I see the benefit to the government very clearly. Will we do business with only giant existing firms, or should we be concerned with competition in the future? I don't think that waiting for large firms to mentor small firms will give effective results.
Biggest problems I've encountered in about 20 years are large, seemingly reputable firms creating or propping up phony companies to pursue set asides, and bundling to circumvent set aside requirements.
If you think racism, sexism and jingoism no longer exist, maybe you should watch the teabaggers in the news.
-
2
- #19
Racism and affirmative action are a two way street. Just imagine the public uproar if there was a NAAWP, but the goal of the NAACP is fully accepted. Affirmative action with a racial bias only serves to make an unnecessary racial distinction. The concept is outdated in contemporary American society.
We still have problems and much to improve upon in the USA regarding racism, but we do NOT have Tutsi's killing Hutu's with machete's (e.g. Rwanda) or Christians ethnically cleansing Muslims (e.g. Bosnia). Formally and publically emphasizing racial differences via govermental subsidies will not improve matters on a number of levels.
Get in your Japanese car, drive to a Mexican restaurant and enjoy a German beer in America.
We still have problems and much to improve upon in the USA regarding racism, but we do NOT have Tutsi's killing Hutu's with machete's (e.g. Rwanda) or Christians ethnically cleansing Muslims (e.g. Bosnia). Formally and publically emphasizing racial differences via govermental subsidies will not improve matters on a number of levels.
Get in your Japanese car, drive to a Mexican restaurant and enjoy a German beer in America.
- Status
