Ethics of Performance Specifications

[sbrg]

In the past few years I have noticed that many A/E firms have been requiring the contractor/fabricator to design items like stair systems and light guage metal framing for walls and store fronts. I am not referring to the detailing of connections, but to the sizing of members and the configuration of framing layouts. In many cases, the contractor or fabricator would need to hire a structural engineer to properly design these items. The issue I have with this is that the review person at the A/E firm would still have to go through the design process to check the suppliers submittal and the client is potentially paying for that design 3 times. (1)The client is paying the A/E for designing the structure and its components through a design contract; (2) The supplier will include the cost of an engineer to design a component in his bid where the client pays again; (3) The A/E firm bills the client for checking the submittal under the contract andministration phase of the project where the client will pay for the same service a third time. I welcome any thoughts from the design community.

 

[woodman88]

"In the pass few years..."? I got into designing multi story apartment buildings seven years ago. It was standard to design the connections for a metal stair, that was noted to be designed by others, in the plans. All we did was to check that the sealed stair shops/designs had our connection detail designed into the stairs. When a certain building department started requiring the stair design to be part of the city submittal, we included our standard industrial steel stair design/calculations into the plans/calculations. The client call us on it as it did not match the architectural details for the building. I had to explained that we did not charge them for the design of the stairs, the stair fabricator will be charging them to design the stairs as the client wants them to look, why pay twice for the stairs design just to get the plans through the building department?

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[Ron]

sbrg...this is nothing new. I've been doing delegated structural analysis/design for over 25 years for one client who produces high level aluminum canopy structures and for over 5 years for two different stair and rail fabricators. They generally build my fee into the cost of the job.

In most cases, the SEOR does not design anything to do with either and only provides me with the applicable code and analysis parameters that he/she used for the building. I then review the shop drawings, do an analysis, revise the shop drawings if necessary to comply with the analysis, then sign and seal everything for a submittal package. I usually submit a calculation package for the SEOR's review; however, it is relatively rare that I get anything sent back (it does happen on occasion...usually a result of some miscommunication between my client and me, or in some cases I've been expected to read the mind of the SEOR as no information was provided to me). In some cases I know the SEOR or architect does not review the submittal and require it only as CYA for themselves (they can then claim specific reliance on the delegated engineer).

For specialty structual items, I take no exception to this practice nor do I think it is an ethical compromise. For other detailing or specificity (such as flashings and waterproofing) that either an architect or engineer is just too lazy to do and relies on the contractor to do his/her design, I think it is blatantly wrong and does compromise the ethics of professional practice in project delivery.

My practice is primarily in structural and construction forensics, so I see the result of poor detailing and poor specification on a daily basis. It ain't purty!

 

[JLNJ]

Here's an example - your architect specifies a glass guardrail/handrail system. Who performs the strength calculations for the glass? It is unlikely that most SEOR's would not have the expertise to design structural glass. It gets delagated - and that's probably a good thing.

It certainly can get a little sloppy if, for example, the architect specs a stair which requires special interaction with the structure (e.g. fixed ended supports, floating landings, special hangers and the like) and the engineer doesn't take this into account or help communicate the complexities and expectations to the stair engineer/fabricator. In this case the Owner deserves better.

 

[TXStructural]

Not only is the practice of delegating work to specialists acceptable, it is frequently the only ethical course of action. If the EOR doesn't trust a specialist, s/he needs to find one that s/he does trust. If the client is paying for three people to design one component, I would say that isn't good practice.

 

[JAE]

I think the more interesting aspect of this subject is this:

How far, or how much, of the total structural elements of a structure can or should be delegated?

For example: My design of a 3 story office building:

THE CONTRACTOR SHALL INCLUDE IN THE BID ALL ENGINEERING DESIGN WORK REQUIRED TO MEET ALL APPLICABLE CODES AND STANDARDS TO PRODUCE A FLOOR SYSTEM, COLUMN/WALL SUPPORT LAYOUT, AND LATERAL BRACING SYSTEM CONSISTENT WITH THE ARCHITECT'S PLANS AND DETAILS. PROVIDE FULL DESIGN CALCULATIONS AND PLANS, SEALED BY A LICENSED STRUCTURAL ENGINEER, FOR REVIEW PRIOR TO FABRICATION.

Now, please, Mr. Owner, send me my fee.

Sincerely,
Structural Engineer Par Excellence,
JAE

 

[connectegr]

This is a standard practice on many larger structural projects. Our firms business is based on providing these miscellaneous design requirements and steel connection design. Both are delegated responsibilities. With the exception of manufactured "catalog" stair items, I rarely see complete stair designs. Many cases show only floor openings for stairs. The architect provides renderings on the intended appearance, and the fabricator develops the rest. We design the stringers, handrail, etc from the fabricators detail information. There are many variables that are not available and necessary for the main structural design. Most design firm engineers or draftsman cannot detail stairs.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[Ron]

Hey JAE...its good work if you can get it! If we were as arrogant as architects we could get away with it!(we of course know that if the architect had been fortunate enough to be molded as a child by an engineer, that would not happen )

 

[dik]

JAE... your note requires improvement...

THE CONTRACTOR SHALL INCLUDE IN THE BID ALL ENGINEERING DESIGN WORK REQUIRED TO MEET ALL APPLICABLE CODES, STANDARDS AND DOCUMENTS REFERENCED THEREIN, TO PRODUCE A FLOOR SYSTEM, COLUMN/WALL SUPPORT LAYOUT, AND LATERAL BRACING SYSTEM CONSISTENT WITH THE ARCHITECT'S PLANS AND DETAILS. PROVIDE FULL DESIGN CALCULATIONS AND PLANS, SEALED BY A LICENSED STRUCTURAL ENGINEER, FOR REVIEW PRIOR TO FABRICATION.

Now it's on par with mine <G>.

Dik

 

[JAE]

dik - yes those referenced documents serve as a "gotcha" every time!