Ethics of unlicensed practice reports 4

[GRANITE80]

In my business, I have been in a position where I am increasingly aware of unlicensed practice of engineering or architecture. My question is at what point is it unethical to NOT report unlicensed practice:

Two different examples:

1. 10 foot hight retaining wall constructed with no permits, no drainage provisions, obvious construction problems. In my mind, this is an obvious danger to public health and safety and needs to be reported.

2. Structural engineers performing architecture in instances where our state statues clearly require a licensed architect (e.g. significant buildings, schools). Smaller municipalities turn there back to this practice and it is considered unethical by many in my profession to "turn people in". If these individuals knowingly continue to break the law, don't we have an ethical obligation to report his practice to the board?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[JAE]

If you are a licensed engineer, and know of someone violating the engineering laws of your state or jurisdiction, I believe you have an obligation to report them - check your engineering practice act or laws as they usually include language to the extent that you should do this.

Just because a local community building department is not enforcing it, you are still under the same ethical standard. In other words, others behavior does not influence your ethical behavior.

 

[MedicineEng]

This is the same case of if you see a lot of persons stealing, are you going to steal with them?

 

[JStephen]

Be very sure of your facts before reporting stuff like this, though.

Example No. 1- Is this unlicensed practice, or total lack of engineering, or poor engineering by a licensee? Is the structure somehow exempt for licensing requirements?

In various jurisdictions, structures under a certain dollar amount are exempt, structures designed by owner on his own land are exempt, Indian reservations may be exempt, etc. So the retaining wall may have problems, but just driving by and looking at it won't necessarily give you the information you need to report it.

 

[melone]

It has nothing to do with being a licensed engineer. If you know someone if putting public safety at unnacceptable risk, you have a moral obligation to report it to the appropriate authority! Now, the trick is determining what is "unnacceptable risk".

 

[Ashereng]

In many jurisdictions, there are overlaps with regards to who can design/stamp certain things.

For example, a retaining wall in your back yard of 3 ft and under does not need anything (ie your kids can do it). Over 3 ft and under I think something like 6 feet, the list is long but includes the architect, engineer, and I think a certified landscape technician. Over that, I think an engineer is required.

This is from memory, so please don't quote me.

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[GRANITE80]

Thank you for the insight and providing some validation to my conscience and ethical obligation as a P.E. A little more explanation ... Prior to reporting the specific instance #2, I contacted the engineers board and architects board to speak vaguely about the violation and was told this was an infraction and they were interested to learn more about the parities involved. Prior to filing the formal report, I discussed the matter with the owner himself who was indifferent to the infractions because his bottom line was saving money and limiting dollars spent on professional consultants. After reporting his actions to the board, he has been bad mouthing my business for causing delay's in his project as a result of the investigation and penalties.

Thanks again for the thoughts...

 

[RLM2000]

We have a client who is an inspector for a local jurisdiction. He is a "permit specialist" outside of his jurisdiction. One day we noticed an illegal cut in his jurisdiction and it was blatantly unsafe (20 feet of vertical face in sandy silt). There were people working in between this basement wall and the cut face.

The first thing we did was question the foreman of the crew about the cut. He basically ignored us.

Then we called our contact at the jurisdiction. We asked who inspected cuts? "It is not my job" he said. We continued on about lack of jobsite safety on residential projects. He agreed but the argument got heated.

The results are:

-The client has dropped us (not that his work was anything great)

-He has caused us innumerable problems in his jurisdiction (not that our plans are perfect every time, but I have definitely noticed a shift in attitude since this altercation).

-The illegal cut remained in place and several more were made in the same subdivision.

So, what was the point of this? Try to be PC and amicable when you rat someone out, and if you are going to attack a jurisdiction for not catching something illegal, try your best not to get someone with an ego to listen to.

 

[IRstuff]

I certainly applaud you for your courage and your ethics.

Whistleblowing is often a thankless and reviled task.

TTFN

 

[BJC]

If you as an engineer see something that is unsafe you can be liable. As in th ecase of RLM2000 and the cuts mentioned above. IF you see them and someone later gets hurtor killed the lawyers can and may come after you as a trained professional who saw something and did nothing. I have been advised under such circumstances to 1.) act like I didn't see a thing and don't mention it to anyone. 2.) If you do make note of it carry it through to the point where you can document that the situation was brought to the attention of someone who has the authority to correct it. You also need to document that you are an expert on th particular situation you observe.

 

[JStephen]

In reporting something like this, I would be very tempted to do so anonymously just to avoid the problems mentioned above. Particularly so if you are not involved somehow in the work.

On the illegal cut with people working under it, that's an OSHA issue and should have been reported to them if it needed reporting.

 

[kontiki99]

Somewhat off topic but related;

At my very first job as an FAA Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic, I was fired for refusing to install an automobile voltage regulator in a very messed up Cessna 182 owned by a small Fixed Base Operator in Florida.

That was maybe 25 years ago.

I spent the next three months looking for work until I was finally hired by Eastern Airlines in Miami.

I was penniless when I got to Miami and even went about 3 days with no food waiting for my first paycheck.

This was one area I thought a union added value, it would have never happened in a union shop.

I suppose after I got back on my feet I could have tried to follow up with the FAA, but it never came to pass.

This is why I believe it's so important to fund agencies that enforce safety regulations. It's a task that's really out of reach of your average unemployed worker.

 

[electricpete]

I'm curious about JStephen's comment - do the boards take anonymous complaints?

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[JStephen]

I haven't tried it to see, electricpete. I suppose it might depend on the circumstances as well.

Sending the state board a photo of a retaining wall about to fall over doesn't sound to me like it's liable to elicit much action- because, as I pointed out above, it could be exempt for various reasons in the first place. Maybe it's scheduled for replacement tomorrow, who knows?

Sending them a blueprint sealed with an out-of-state seal or an advertisement from an unlicensed firm or person or something along that line, I can see being more effective.

 

[RLM2000]

In my case: We wrote a letter to the Jurisdiction and OSHA. We didn't have any facts other than visual data and estimates. We wrote the letter voicing our concern, and that maybe it should be checked into. There could have been other outlying items with the work; there may have been a geo-tech report that allowed vertical cuts up to 10 high or something, although it is highly unlikely.

We did make a showing that we were concerned and had brought it to the proper attention. The result was a "thank you, we'll check on it" from OSHA, and getting badmouthed in the steam room by the people at the jurisdiction. I have spent the last 6 months rebuilding that relationship.