ethics 1

[5747hazel]

here are is a situations I might run into
say as an engineer you are hired by a employer who doesn't have a license to provide engineering services to public. the employer never ask you to provide any engineering services to public under the employer's name. but some time the employer would ask you to engineer something for the employer itself. say to build a little structure in its parking lot or in a land it purchased. is it ok for you to do the work and sign and seal the document? even do you have to sign and seal the document you produce it is only for your employer. or even is it ethical to do the work?
I personally always worked for some kind of engineering firm for my whole life. never needed to deal with a situation like above before. thanks

 

[r13]

I don't see much of conflict here. First, an employer does not need to have professional engineer license to open business. A license is required to provide service to the public, the service shall be provided/produced/supervised by a licensed engineer though. When your employer ask you to provide personal service, unless you are forced to, otherwise you shall treat him just like a client of yours.

 

[johnie134]

5747hazel, you can do that if he pays you good.

 

[r13]

By the way, if he has a business partner, then he shouldn't ask you to do his favor during the work hour, and using company's properties. It is unfair to his partner.

 

[Bill R]

If you are licensed, then you should follow all of your state's rules and laws with regard to the practice of engineering. I would imagine most states are like mine in that an engineer may practice under their given name, so your boss would essentially be your client and his company would not require an engineering business license or your state's equivalent. Also in my state, any person may practice engineering on property owned by him or her as long as it does not involve health and safety of the public or employees. If you were not licensed and say a talented CADD technician providing drawings to your boss, you would not be covered by that exemption in my state.

Any person practicing engineering for the improvement of, or otherwise affecting, property legally owned by her or him, unless such practice involves a public utility or the public health, safety, or welfare or the safety or health of employees. This paragraph shall not be construed as authorizing the practice of engineering through an agent or employee who is not duly licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

 

[r13]

If you are not licensed, then you can't sign and seal the document. A seal carries the state it was issued, and license number.

 

[5747hazel]

I'm licensed. The reason I'm asking is because he is not asking me for a personal favor. He asks me to do for what I'm hired for. I'm hired by the employer to do engineering for him but I realize the employor can't do engineering service. If I produce drawings the title of the drawings can't be my employer. Should I use my own firm to do it? Then he should hire my firm but not me even I'm one man army

 

[mfgenggear]

THIS IS CONFUSING
if you have license yes you can.
even if your employer doesn't

now if the agreement when you were hired you would engineer under your license then yes
if not it needs to be renegotiated
if your employer was fair he pay you xtra

 

[5747hazel]

The property I am asked to do engineering on are owned by the employer. Its the employers development. I guess the employer is trying hire me directly to do the engineering instead of contract an engineering entity to do it. If that's the case I think he should hire my firm probably. Otherwise who is gonna be on the title block of the engineering drawings? Or he might contract another engineering entity to sign and seal and title but ask me to do the actual work. Is that even OK?

 

[r13]

Other than insurance, which can be complicate, that I don't have the experience to address it, there shouldn't be any confusion, but some saving.

The drawing shall bear your company's logo, but signed and sealed by you. If you are adequately/satisfactorily compensated, your saving is the cost to have a company of your own, and insurance and business tax. Your employer's saving is not required to pay the full service company that will charge him much more to cover their operation cost, and profit, on top of the bare service fee. I don't see the reason for him to go out to pay someone else to sign off the design, unless you are not licensed in the jurisdiction, or you are not qualified to perform the task. If this is the cast, your employer and the third party engineer have violate the rule, and are subject to punitive action against them. However, even then, I don't think you are in violation, unless the third party is involved through your introduction.

If you are really interested in open up your own practice, and are capable of doing so (technically), you shall talk to your employer openly to find the best way to do it. He can be your investor, or partner.

 

[Bill R]

Or he might contract another engineering entity to sign and seal and title but ask me to do the actual work. Is that even OK?

You would not be the engineer of record in that case, but perhaps a delegated engineer if anything (review your state's rules). I do not see an immediate ethical or misconduct issue unless there is some apparent intent to bypass state laws regarding practice of engineering by some party.

 

[5747hazel]

I guess I'm still not quite sure. A company that provides engineering services to public should register with the board in my state. First of all my employer is not an engineering company who doesn't provide and not allowed to provide engineering services. Therefore my employer name couldn't be put on a title block on any engineering drawings. I'm working for my employer and hired to do engineering for the employers own project. Who should be in the title block of the engineering drawings. Say employer is building an apartment building by the ocean. The employer contracted other professionals such as architects, HVAC... But I'm doing structural as en direct hire by the employer. . When I produces drawings who should be on the title block? Another concern is that the employer might not follow engineer's instructions. It's not an engineering firm and it's not managed as an engineering firm. The firm also has its own construction team who might or might not follow engineers. Does the city check if you have sign sealed drawing at site? What if the employer doesn't follow the engineering document. Say the employer could build a shed on its own property without any sign and sealed engineering doc and later on if the property is sold if anything happens the engineer could be hold responsible since people would believe it was built following the engineering doc produced by me but I might not know it or the employer might not follow my drawings. I feel safe to have my own firm and any drawings issued to have my own company s name on it with my seal of course I have control and record or what I issue to him. It's up to him to follow or not... Any thoughts. It's too much for everyone?

 

[r13]

Check the register of the company, if it is permitted to provide engineering services, in which field, and to what extend. If you are the sole licensed engineer, and are supposed to sign/seal the documents, then you are the EOR. Talk to your employer to go over and cover all grounds as you have stated.

Many companies do design-built, figure out how it works.

 

[IRstuff]

In many states, this is covered by an industrial exemption; if this is performed for the company itself, for its own uses, there would be no conflict nor violation of the law.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[Ron]

In this case you are acting as a sole engineer for services to someone, namely your employer; however, it is not in the context of your employment. Your employer is now the public, not just your employer. Therefore, you must be licensed (as you are) and must sign/seal any engineering documents you provide. Next, unless you get a clear indemnification from your employer, you will need to have professional liability insurance to cover you in case something goes bad. If he provides an indemnification, make sure it is a broad form indemnification that covers you for your work as an employee or any personal work you may perform for him outside your employment.

 

[5747hazel]

thanks a lot. but still with this kind of arrangement keep a clean record of what I do is kind of challenging I feel because all the communications would be within the company's system sometimes it is just verbal. I don't find an indemnification form on the board's website. I will call to see if they have one.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Here are situations I might run into...

I personally always worked for some kind of engineering firm...

The employer contracted other professionals such as architects, HVAC...
It's not an engineering firm and it's not managed as an engineering firm.
The firm also has its own construction team...

There is such a thing as a "sophisticated" client who is not technically dumb and clueless. Perhaps your job is to effectively communicate with contract professionals to ensure that they understand what is needed, then make certain that the in-house construction team knows exactly what is to be done.

You may never prepare, sign, or seal a drawing, yet will still be practicing engineering.

Instead of guessing what might happen, wait and see.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[NorthCivil]

no worries in working for your boss - as long as your are competent and can perform the tasks given with the appropriate knowledge.

if you haven't done the same type of work in a while, might be worthwhile to hire a suitably experienced peer reviewer to check your work.

i would be most worried about having the right insurance cover - including tailing cover

 

[5747hazel]

I called some insurance agencies, a lot of them just dont do structural. any recommendations? thanks.

 

[drawoh]

5747hazel,

What do you think of your boss?

In your non-professional environment, is your expertise doing to be respected? Are you designing this thing, or is your boss making critical decisions? If the design is yours, who is going to erect it? Are there critical workmanship issues?

I am a mechie. In my world, I have to worry about continued manufacturing. If manufacturing is inclined to do design changes without consulting me, I cannot assume my safety plan will be followed. In your world, building inspectors may be involved, which probably, is a good thing.



--
JHG