european salaries 4

[ARenko]

Anyone know a website with engineering salaries in Europe? Something like salary.com? I can't seem to find anything. I've got an offer in Paris, which is low per my manager friend at the company (and per me for that matter) and I need some backup, without using him.

Or, any Europeans or expats out there have any idea? I'm considering a local contract. I'm an ME with 10 yrs experience. The industry is Marine/ Oil & Gas.

TIA,
djv

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

Try

http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldpaysalaries2005.htm

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[ajack1]

Djv there will be a lot of generalisation here but most of it holds true IMO.

If you are looking purely for more bucks, don’t do it, look at the Middle East. Most Europeans earn less than their American counterparts. Taxes also are higher and unless you live in New York or somewhere similar property prices will scare you senseless, okay that’s the bad news.

Most things are covered in Europe, for example France has a fantastic health service and public transport is far better than anywhere I have been in the States. Most of Europe and France especially has far more holidays (paid) than you will be used to and your hours will almost certainly be shorter and workers seem to have far more rights in Europe.

Europe also offers a great opportunity to travel, Paris has two major airports and in two hours or under you can be in anyone of about 20 countries and with the “budget” airlines this will be for about $150 US or less return, much less if you book early, so weekends can be great, if that interests you.

Again a huge generalisation but Europeans seem to spend more on food, drink and free time and less on luxury items than Americans, not to mention hospitals, lawyers and collage funds ;-)

So in short if it is all about money don’t, if you see it as a life experience, find out as much as you can, cost of living, local taxes, property prices and the like. One final thing English is not spoken by all, again you can see this as a pain or an opportunity.

Good luck with your research and I hope you make the right decision, whatever that may be.

 

[ARenko]

Thanks Limey. That helps some. I'd love to find one that goes in a bit more depth in terms of years of experience if anyone knows another.

ajack1, the reason is to be closer to my wife's family in northern Italy (she is Italian) and also for the experience of living in Europe. I am aware that the salaries are less than in America and also about all the benefits you mentioned, which we are looking forward to.

I have looked into everything you mentioned as well and I am scared senseless about property prices, but figure it can be done. Regarding language, the company works in English, but of course I will make the effort to speak french.

As I mentioned, my friend is a manager in the company. In fact in the same department as the one I am applying and he said that they have offered a very low salary (probably because the last two hires for that group were from Eastern Europe and they could get them cheaper than local engineers). I want to negotiate, but I want to be able to give them some data from reliable sources. Of course my friend is probably the most reliable, but I do not want to involve him in the discussion as it may cause some problems for him.

 

[ajack1]

This might give you some idea

http://www.oilcareers.com/regions/737/FRANCE_htmjoblist.asp

You will need all the luck in the world if you are against Eastern European labour.

 

[Heckler]

Djv,

Just remember America is the greatest nation on this green earth. I was born/raised in England. I worked two years of my adult life in England and Germany. The U.S has far more opportunities afforded to its people then any European country. But living and working in Europe or a foriegn country is an experience you shouldn't pass up. Why not work in Italy? I have a friend working there now....it's funny to see a chinese guy speaking fluent Italian.

 

[ARenko]

Heckler,
I am exploring some options in Italy as well, but most of Europe provides an advantage over our current location in terms of holiday time and travel options/ cost to visit the in-laws. The Paris job is a good fit because I worked for them before (in the US though), it is a multinational work environment, and the company has offices in over 130 countries, so, there are options to move again, even back to the US if we want.

 

[epoisses]

There's no such thing as a European salary. There's not even such thing as a French salary. Wages in Paris are much higher than in the rest of the country, but so are living expenses and commuting time. I don't think you could ever figure out (at least not easily) which country or city would offer you the best ratio salary versus expense, so don't focus on your salary, instead look at where you'd like to be. Don't expect working in Italy (or getting a job at all) to be easy if you don't speak Italian. Same for France, Germany, Spain... To minimise language problems you may want to focus on the UK or IRL. But if the climate scares you, you could try a mediterranean country instead. Find out what your priorities are and, of course, find out where your favourite companies have affiliates.

Concerning Heckler's remark "Just remember America is the greatest nation on this green earth." - I know that this is true in certain respects, but if you go to work in Europe, please keep in mind that many people hold a similar (and in certain but different respects true as well) belief toward e.g. France.

 

[ajack1]

Heckler “Just remember America is the greatest nation on this green earth” is a pretty rash statement.

Whilst it may offer more career opportunities than some countries and higher salaries than most it tops neither. If you look at things like violent crime, it certainly comes well down the list.

As with everything so much is personal choice, the very reasons some people love living in big cities are the exact reasons others hate it and the same applies to the wilderness.

As epoisses states there is no such thing as a European salary, or even French, just as there is no such thing as an American salary. Even within a city or area prices and amenities will vary greatly depending on what district or suburb you live in, much like your counties I guess.

This site is pretty good, although you do have to pay.

http://eiu.enumerate.com/asp/wcol_HelpIndexCalc.asp

 

[ARenko]

epoisses, I'm not looking for which place offers the best salary/ COL ratio. If I was, I would probably never leave Houston. I am asking specifically what is the market rate for a mechanical engineer in the Paris area with 10 years experience and there must be some numbers which can give me a good idea. I'm aware of the COL in Paris.

I do speak Italian btw. With regards to the Paris position, my english language skills are a benefit for the company as most of the work is done in english and they have no problem that I do not speak french now as they deal with this often since many employees come to the Paris office without knowing french.

 

[ELEcontrol3e]

Obviously Heckler voted for Bush and if he were back in England would vote for Blair.

I live here in America, born and raised of parents of european heritage, its a great contry and very different from the rest of the world but Heckler's “Just remember America is the greatest nation on this green earth” is a little off base. Europe has much stronger benefits especially time off. America is all about work 100%, that has its pros and cons. There is a better business mindset, but I think it comes at the expense of culture and family life. How great are the Americans who have lost their jobs to outsourcing? Would Heckler be singing the same tune if his company had been laying him off? I dont think so. I graduated in 2001, and it took me 4 years to find permanent engineering work. In addition the "green earth" is significantly less green due to American contribution of "degreening" of our planet.

America Europe and Asia all have advantages and disadvantages. The thing to do in my opinion is not worry so much about salary, but try to get a broad international business experience. Learn quality from the Japanese, entrepeneurial vision from the Americans, International business from the Europeans. Plus it also depends on the industry you are working for. Keep learning and experiencing different things industries and companies. Focus on what you can contribute, and you'll be the better for it in the long haul.

 

[ARenko]

I hope this doesn't turn into an american versus european thread. I'm not so worried about salary (as people keep saying). I can accept that my salary will be lower. To me it is offset by the experience, the time off, my wife's happiness (not that she's unhappy now), and the social benefits. However, I have a family to support and I want a fair salary. As I've said, indications from my friend, a manager who works at the company, are that it is not an appropriate salary for my experience level so I am just looking for some backup for the next round of discussions. I'm not looking for advice on benefits of living here or there, COL, etc.... Don't mean to be rude or anything - just want to keep the thread on track.

 

[ScottyUK]

djv,

Although your a mechanical guy and I'm electrical, and electrical engineers are so obviously worth more than mechs, if you were looking at a job in London I would suggest you should be chasing the 45k GBP mark for an experienced & quailifed engineer. I don't know how London compares to Paris, but I would suggest that they are not vastly different in terms of salary. London is probably slightly higher in cost, and I'm pretty sure that the standard of living is lower in London than in Paris. I can't comment on taxation - I believe French taxes are pretty steep.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[ajack1]

Sorry djv, I probably started the off thread debate, just trying to give a bit of information that I thought you might not know, obviously you have researched this well, which on reflection I should have worked out you would have done.

With regard to the salary, I think you will have an uphill battle finding an accurate amount for a given job allowing you have given experience in a given place.

Many positions will only discuss salary at an interview and even then will operate within a fairly wide band depending on numerous variables. Supply and demand also is a huge factor, as you mentioned earlier the post in the past had been filled by Eastern Europeans some of these guys will work for very little money and are very hard working and competent. On the other hand if you exactly are what this company are looking for they may be prepared to go outside the pay scale of the position you are applying for. On top of this some companies pay well some don’t.

My guess is your friend is the best person to ask, but I can understand you do not want to put him in an awkward situation. Failing that look at lots of job sites to try and get a feel for what is the norm, or try and get some French newspapers with situations vacant in them.

Good luck.

 

[ARenko]

no problem ajack, it's all good info. Mainly just didn't want it to go off on Heckler's comment about the greatest country.

This thread has helped. The finfacts link above was good and scotty's number helps as well (thx scotty). I've talked to my friend and he has specifically told me it is not a good offer and he suggested what it should be - I just don't want to use his name in negotiation in case it causes some problems for him.

Now I've found a couple of sites that give info on salaries for ME's in Paris, though not specific to years of experience or industry. Since it doesn't give this info I've taken my current salary and compared it to similar surveys for all ME's in my current location. From this I see that I make a certain percentage above average. Taking this same percentage above the average in the Paris survey puts me in the neighborhood of where my friend says I should be and where Scotty suggests as well (adjusted for salary difference between London/ Paris). So now I have some confidence in the numbers.

I've also looked at many job adverts for engineers in Paris and found a few that list salaries. The salaries are in the range of what they offered me, but the level of experience required was typically 2-3 years. So, this also backs up that the offer is on the low side.

 

[Heckler]

ELEcontrol3e

I believe that statement to be true (IMHO) it was not centered around my political views or beliefs. It seems a lot of people posting in this forum want to make statements political…. I base that statement on my experiences here in America as a working engineer. Most of my family still resides in England and I can tell you first hand (not raised by parents of European heritage) that as an American I have had more opportunities afforded to me. I totally agree with you about advantages and disadvantages with all things in life.

How great are the Americans who have lost their jobs to outsourcing? Would Heckler be singing the same tune if his company had been laying him off?

It’s not my countries responsibility to keep me employed or is it for that entity to keep my technical skills current. I do that because I want to stay competitive in this ever changing world market. I’ve been affected by downturns in industries but have always managed to find employment.

. I graduated in 2001, and it took me 4 years to find permanent engineering work.

You must have been looking with your eyes closed or not doing something right We're all glad you're now a productive part of the American society.

 

[epoisses]

djv,

Nono, I did not want to start US versus Europe either... Most people on either side of the ocean (including me) don't know the other side very well, so it becomes a religious question...

Anyway. Getting back to Paris, please note that even though much smaller than Houston (which I happen to know) is much more densely populated, so commuting is a major issue and can take 1.5-2 hours... one way! Housing prices are in line with that, so do NOT expect to find a house and a quality of life like you can have in Clearlake. London is very much like Paris in this respect. All you will most probably find is an old noisy appartment for which you pay through your nose. Paris IS a wonderful city, but you can always visit it without having to live there - it depends also if you have kids or not. Smaller towns are much better. People will tell you 50% of the higher-level French jobs are in Paris... which mean the other 50% are not!

And hey, if you do speak Italian... why not Italy?

http://www.paginegialle.it

for starters...

 

[heieup]

Ignoring all the hoo-har about whether Europe is better or not.... about salaries in Europe.

As has been said, it is difficult to begin to compare directly one area / wage against another. But, there is a site in the UK

http://payfinder.com

which may give you an idea about the right kind of range, all in pounds sterling though so you will need to convert into Euro / Dollars.

Just a point to note as well, it is the law against discrimination in the European Union that there must be a rate for the job, rather than a rate for the person. That means that regardless of your experience you get paid the rate for the job. If 1 year experience is all you need for the position you should be paid the same as someone with 15 years experience. (Doesn't always work that way of course) but it is worth consideration when you look at the salary.

P.S. Europe is a wonderful part of the world. The budget airlines will get you to places in a hours journey and usually cost about £75 return inc taxes (thats about $100)

 

[corus]

I've not heard of a 'rate for a job' in the EU before, and it's not law as far as I'm aware. In general you will find jobs advertised with a salary range, dependent upon experience. You negotiate your own salary with your employer before accepting a position. If you don't like the range they're offering then don't apply.

Also, the dollar has fallen in value the past few years and you'll find the rate of exchange to be around 1.9. Approximating that to 2 then 75 GBP is 150 US dollars.

corus

 

[GregLocock]

heieup - you are talking complete rubbish. Just about every job in the EEC I see advertised has a salary range, not a single figure.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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