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Even Jeff Ray comments on this Cadalyst article on First Sale doctrine 3

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AutoCAD has been given away and sold since its beginning. I'm not sure yet if I agree that it's ok to sell on eBay or not.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
 
According to that ruling, it's apparently legal to do so. Based on previous articles on this subject the reasoning seems to lie with the fact that a true license of a product must be time-limited. So theoretically a purchase of a license of SolidWorks ought to be valid for a set term of time, instead of by a version. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well for users, who would prefer to purchase by the version.

Introducing--in the near future--cloud computing, such that software will be meted out by time. I'll bet all the big players in software are looking heavily into this subject. Ug.



Jeff Mowry
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
 
Jeff,

Like it or not, cloud computing is coming with SaaS (software as a service). Companies like Arena Solutions with Arena PLM are proving it can be successful for the engineering market. I think it solves some of the software companies issues with piracy, the subscription model, updating software, distributing software, dealing with users faulty hardware, etc... Of course I think it would be in their best interest to offer a cloud based version along with an "offline" version so users could pick what they preferred.

Pete
 
Software as a service isn't going to fly for certain industries and software types. It works for ERP's and other interfacing software because there is some value from having that information offsite with controlled access. There is no value in having CAD software itself running from an offsite location, and it is not very conducive to doing business, particularly for smaller companies, in my opinion.

As far as software companies claiming they are not selling software? This is just fantasy. It also is a practice of hostilty towards customers to try to enforce such ridiculous claims. It's not just about the publishing companies themselves. It is also the general rights of every citizen, along with the rights of other companies (customers or otherwise). It would hurt the economy and civil rights if First Sale Doctrine is weakened. This is no small issue.


Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
 
"There is no value in having CAD software itself running from an offsite location, and it is not very conducive to doing business, particularly for smaller companies, in my opinion."

Matt, Could you explain why? I think there could be a great amount of value there for small companies. I would expect FEA to be the first offering available in a cloud based setting. I would love to be able to upload an FEA model and have the cloud based solution crunch away on hardware thats orders of magnitude more powerful than what I would be willing to pay for. I could then continue to work away on something else - unhindered. Small companies would be able to benefit tremendously from this without having to purchase and maintain the hardware that was previously only an option for large companies with large budgets for this type of thing. SolidWorks is already experimenting with this in SolidWorks Labs with the cloud based Cosmos Xpress. Just because its cloud based, doesn't mean it couldn't be a combo of things for a while. who says your data has to be stored only locally, or only online - why not both. Why not be able to synchronize data between offline and online so you have the choice - work offline or work locally. Google tried originally to make all cloud based solutions and realized they needed an offline mode for Google Gears. Microsoft had been saying all along that they see the future being a mixture of the two. I think it may be a a little cultural barrier for some people to get acustomed to using software over the internet and will take some time for folks to migrate. I would expect as typical the younger generation to be more apt to use a cloud based solution.
 
You can buy a song for $.99 but to buy the music, you must contact the composer and offer much more. So am I prohibited from selling my old LP records full of songs since all I really have is a license to play? Is software different??
"thinks not"

--
Hardie "Crashj" Johnson
SW 2008 SP4
Nvidia Quadro FX 1000
AMD Athalon 1.8 GHz 2 Gig RAM

 
CAD software and FEA are different. With FEA you set up parameters and then have the software chug away on its own for hours. CAD software requires constant interaction with the file/model/whatever. Cloud computing (over the internet anyway) would be totally unacceptable for our company because our internet connection sucks. It's way too small for the number of people we have, but corporate won't spring for a fatter pipe. If my CAD is running on a super-fast computer but I can't interact due to a bad connection I can't do my job.

-handleman, CSWP (The new, easy test)
 
I'd see rendering in the same category as FEA--capacity to use multiple threads of processing power could really make great use of a chip farm.

And I also agree with handleman, that such cloud computing for the every-day stuff I design would be a hassle for similar reasons. Either way, cloud computing isn't something I want foisted on me by a software company--still lots of bugs to work out in terms of efficiency and reliability. But that IS the direction I believe software companies will push in the next few years (unfortunately).



Jeff Mowry
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
 
If my CAD is running on a super-fast computer but I can't interact due to a bad connection I can't do my job.

You would just need a fast internet connection and a less expensive peice of local hardware. A fast internet connection is not all that pricey anymore. Not saying cloud based stuff is right around the corner, but it is coming. Don't think we should put limits on where it might go based on current internet access speeds. I am sure CAD might be one of larger apps to go online - but it could be possible. Technically - whats being done on sites like second life is quite amazing - though I think its weird... I don't know how much bandwidth would be taken up with interacting with things either. Refreshing screens and sending ineterface data (clicks and keyboard entry) is probably not that high. It is also interesting to see what Microsoft is doing with application streaming. I am not necessarily arguing for cloud based CAD apps - just saying I think it kind of seems inevitable when you look at all the development that is going on right now that is leading in that direction.
 
I don't think CAD companies will immediately foist cloud based CAD on the users. I would hope they would be smarter and more in touch than that. I am sure Betas would exist, and I could see some type of pricing structure that is reduced from the local install version - you know some extra incentive to get some early adopters. I would imagine there would be a choice for a while on what users could pick...
 
pdybeck said:
You would just need a fast internet connection and a less expensive peice of local hardware. A fast internet connection is not all that pricey anymore.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand my situation. I work in a small division of a large facility (>3000 people) of a large multinational corporation. I can't do anything about the internet connection, and my company is unwilling to. It takes about 30 seconds to download a 1MB file. Streaming video doesn't. Don't get me started on the internal network. Suffice it to say that a lot would have to change in my company before cloud computing would be viable.

-handleman, CSWP (The new, easy test)
 
It's not always the cost. In many places high speed is not available.

[cheers]
 
My area, for example. I'm lucky to get reliable (not fast) DSL here, where many are forced with satellite as the only option (slow, plus daily bandwidth restrictions).



Jeff Mowry
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
 
... plus lost signal during storms.

[cheers]
 
Current EULA's do go too far. They are allowed to because politicians didn't understand the whole software business thing until it was too late (and I'm sure most still don't). They got conned into several laws that violate the general premises of patent law and copyright law. One of which is basically that once you sell something, you give up your rights to control that individual item. Laws were specifically structured to prevent companies from double-dipping into their customer's wallets. Current IP laws add special protections to software that do not exist in any other industries. Some say this is because software is different. It's not. Many types of companies have IP. Just because software IP is coded instead of physically built doesn't mean they should be treated differently. There are many forms that IP takes. In all other industries, once IP is discovered, it is no longer protected (unless patented or copyrigthed...but then it is not IP because it is made public in both cases by the information owner).

It is all fantasy and rather uncapitalistic. In fact, the idea that software companies are special and how these companies treat their customers is more like reverse-communism (instead of the authority paying the workers their daily bread, the workers pay the authority its yearly tithe). It's rather unamerican. It has to change sooner or later.



Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
 
I think you nailed that, Matt. What about software sales makes "special" rules applicable?

I can buy and sell a car that has thousands of active patents on IP found within the construction of the car. Why is software code different? I don't license an automobile except in the case of a lease--in which case we again return to a limited term of time for using the automobile. Software licenses don't even attempt to follow that rule.

So what rules do software licenses follow? Whatever the company says in the EULA? That's hardly a contract able to be enforced. In fact, software companies--in their blatant zeal to control users--have even been disallowed the reading of this so-called contract before requiring agreement by the customer. Ever see a license agreement in the form of a red label on the packaging that says something like, "In opening packaging, user agrees to all the terms of the enclosed EULA"? How is that even possible? I cannot truly "agree" to any binding contractual clauses I've not read, can I? How is that legal? How does anyone outside the software industry ever get away with such a thing? (They don't.)

And that brings us to another of your points, Matt. Many laws are not written by lawmakers these days. In fact, many are not even READ by lawmakers--they literally have not read what they pass into law (much less understand it). And yet they're OK with such ignorance. In fact, it pays by the hundreds of thousands of dollars to remain ignorant. (I call it treason.) So lobbyists pay and get their way, the trusted lawmakers remain totally ignorant and essentially play the host of parasites, to do their bidding. If we think we've got problems with special rules in the software arenas, we've certainly got bigger problems with how binding laws are put into effect. And we'll soon feel the percussive force of such bad decisions.



Jeff Mowry
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
 
I've got an article on my blog that's going to go into this more. It's scheduled to publish on weds. (I am currently reviewing it for its content.) Stay tuned. And, yes, Theo, you nailed it with the car example. I'm bringing that up for a couple of examples as to why the s/w industry is living in a fantasy world right now.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
 
Matt, why don't you post a link to the article you mentioned? Nice article!



Jeff Mowry
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
 
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