Expectation of Unvouchered Overtime 12

[flash3780]

I've worked at several companies in my career. The latest one outlined an expectation of at least 4-5 hrs/week of unvouchered overtime (beyond 40 hours). They call it "casual overtime". I understand that companies aren't required to pay engineers overtime, and that's fine... I just thought that it's a bit odd that we're not supposed to record the extra hours worked.

Is this a common practice? I've not run across it in the past... it seems like the company may be covering themselves in case an employee were to try and claim some of the unpaid hours in court or something. It's not likely anyone could make such a claim if there's no record. Anyone else have experience with "casual overtime"? I'm curious.

 

[JohnRBaker]

In our industry segment, engineering software, the 40-hour work week went out the window with the advent of laptops and highspeed network connections at home, to say nothing of airport hot-spots and hotel WiFi. I can even respond to customer inquiries from my iPhone while waiting in line for gas at Costco.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[MikeHalloran]

At my last job, I started as a temp, for whom overtime is paid, by contract. I was looking forward to a little beer money. In the year I temped there, I didn't get a single minute of overtime pay. They were not hostile about it, just said "Yep, we want this project ASAP, but we don't want it enough to pay for more than 40 hours a week.".

Then I signed on to the same outfit, direct, and was indirectly told that some overtime was expected, for free, though a specific number was not mentioned. By that time, I was used to having evenings to myself, and the office they moved me to was in a sketchy area, so I mostly left at quitting time or shortly thereafter. The job evaporated for unrelated reasons.

The thing that bugged me about the operation, or one of the many things that I thought could be done better, was not that they didn't account for unpaid overtime for engineers, which is common, but that they didn't account for the cost of engineering for _any_ of their projects, so they didn't really know what anything cost. ... and got new business by underbidding, and lost their shirt on every project, without realizing where the money was being spent.

At one of my favorite jobs, long ago, they expected you to record overtime on your time sheet. They still didn't pay for it, but at the end of the week, the President's wife would show up with $3 for each day you worked more than two hours overtime, just to cover dinner at McDonald's. I used to regularly stay until the night janitor went home, not because of the dinner money, but because the work was really interesting.

At most of the too many places I've worked, I kept track of overtime worked, even if unpaid, just so I could justify an occasional personal day.

I've interviewed at a few places that revealed upfront that every engineer was expected to work upwards of 50 hours in exchange for 40 hours pay. ... at which time I pretty much gave up on them and either terminated the interview immediately or stopped taking it seriously. I don't mind putting in extra effort when _I_ think it's justified, but I guess they only want to hire engineers who can't count.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[JohnRBaker]

When I worked for McDonnell Douglas we were all on salary so we only got paid for 40-hours, however if you were required to work a Sunday or a Holiday (Saturdays were gratis), like when you were on the road, you got to 'bank' those days as 'comp time', up to a maximum of 10 days, which could be used as if they were extra vacation days.

However, with my current job, we pretty much have a fairly liberal flex-time policy. For example, I work from home every Friday (when I'm in town). Also, in addition to the normal holidays, we get 30 days annual leave (an advantage working for a German company) and in California your vacation days are YOUR OWN so you can't be forced to 'use'm-or-lose'm' like in most other states so I usually end-up banking several days at the end of the year. I've currently got 15 days in the bank and figured that by the time I retire, in a few years or so, I'll have a pretty little nest egg set aside that will make for a nice 'severance' check to tide us over until Social Security kicks in.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[cvg]

nothing wrong with being expected to work more than 40 hours, but you should also expect a higher salary to compensate for it

 

[IRstuff]

The recording of uncompensated overtime varies at different companies. For most aerospace companies, it's usually mandatory to record them, as the hours are a true reflect of the amount of work expended on a contract. Nonetheless, because the hours are recorded, they also reflect the level of underbidding used on a contract. Other companies would rather not have anything on the books that shows they have uncompensated overtime, since overtime pay is a matter of interpretation of law, and someone may put forth a sufficiently convincing argument that engineers are non-exempt from labor laws, and a company may find itself owing millions in back pay .

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[JohnRBaker]

Also, formally accounted for unused/deferred vacation and 'banked' overtime must be carried on a company's books as a future liability. Every year during November we get a 'boiler-plate' notice to this effect from HR which reminds people that it's time to take your earned time off or it will be lost. Of course, those of us in California and Illinois (the other state where your vacation time is YOURS and not the company's) get special attention since we're really the only employees who are actually contributing to these 'future costs' and for which there is no legal way of wiping out that liability short of encouraging people to take the time off, or that they be offered compensation for surrendering those days. So far, our management has never offered to pay us for those days (I suspect because it would cause an uproar in the other 48 states) except as part of your exit package when you leave the employ of the company for whatever reason.

That being said, when our division of McDonnel Douglas was sold to EDS back in 1991, we all got an extra check for our unused vacation and banked 'comp time'. EDS then started us all from scratch, but since the acquisition took place in early November they immediately vested all of with a full year of credit toward our vacation time so that we would be able to take time off over the holidays, so we actually did pretty well that year. Note that the ownership of our company has changed hands at least 3 time since then but in each case they merely carried over to the new HR system whatever was currently credited with no special payout. Not sure why that was not done back during the MDC -> EDS transition. Perhaps accounting practices have changed since then or due to the nature of McDonnell Douglas's business, this was the easiest for all parties concerned.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[moltenmetal]

Put any time you work on your timesheet. If it's not billable, either because it's not related to the project or because the project can't bear the cost of it, bill it to a non-billable (administration) project code. Future projects are bid on the hours taken to do previous ones, so hiding how much work it took merely guarantees that you and your colleagues will be doing more and more free work going forward.

No professional is going to quibble over spending some extra uncompensated time to learn something new, fix some screw-ups that you caused or failed to catch, or because a deadline needs to be met. When that extra time becomes routine, or expected, or compelled, you need to ensure that you are being compensated either with time in lieu, or extra pay- a bonus, profit-sharing, shares/options etc. Working for free devalues your services and those of our colleagues. If you think you're building up stores of goodwill with your boss, think again- your boss may be gone tomorrow.

Remember that any amount of personal sacrifice you make on your company's behalf will be accepted: not compensated for, nor acknowledged or even noticed in any meaningful way, but definitely accepted.

If you're bored or have no life, and find your work so interesting in comparison that you want to pursue it for free, remember that having no life because of work is a self-fulfilling prophesy- and for some people, work is an addictino. Rather than giving your time to a for-profit company, give your time instead to a charity which will provide some benefit to society at large. Treat your own time as valuable- sell it for fair value, or give it to worthy causes. You'll find that if you do so, others will value your time more as well.

 

[spongebob007]

Certainly sounds like something shady going on. Either your employers is contractually not allowed to have you billing more than 40 hours a week, they are trying to hide how long jobs actually take, or they are afraid of being sued. My company loves to treat engineers like slaves. Management will issue edicts on minimum number of overtime hours or days worked, and these periods of overtime (usually 50 to 60 hours a week mandatory) can go on for up to four months. The first year they did this the edict was put in writing and sent out in an email to all engineers. After that first time nothing has ever been put in writing-all overtime mandates are passed on verbally, my guess being so that there is no evidence.

Legally an employer can make overtime mandatory and fire anyone who refuses to work the hours. There is also no legal limit on how many hours a person can be forced to work in a week (except for a few specific fields) or for how long mandatory overtime lasts. However employees can sue their employer over excessive overtime.

 

[flash3780]

Wow, thanks for all of the great responses. I chuckle when the company that I'm at now give lectures about how important it is to be accurate on your timesheet and to voucher before the end of the day... but at the same time they expect you to work unrecorded hours.

It doesn't really matter too much to me, I think that it's much more about being technically accurate, setting realistic schedules & objectives and delivering on them than it is about getting in my extra five hours per week. From my end, I'm not so much concerned with putting in extra hours if the work is interesting and technically challenging.

The job where I worked the least overtime was when I worked in a government laboratory... the place cleared out at 4pm every day. I was in the military at the time, so they even gave us recess to go out and play frisbee or lift weights once a week.

 

[ztengguy]

As professionals, We come and go as we need to (at least here). As long as projects get done, there isnt much issue. Now, i dont think I would dilute my salary if they said I had to work 50 hours.

 

[bcd]

I worked for a company that mandated 5 hours unpaid overtime for all Engineers. Now this company billed these hours against government contracts. They managed to get away with it for about 2 years until they were found to be in violation of the labor laws. For salary exempt personnel it is generally not a problem to justify the extra hours. The problem was with new engineers, where it was hard to convince anyone that they were in positions of responsibility or had management responsibilities. So all the young Engineers received backpay.

You really have to question working for a company that mandates the extra time. Why would they do it? In my case, it was pure greed for profit. Can't blame them for that if they believe they can get away with it. In reality, I worked the same hours before and after the 5 hour mandate, Whatever it took to get the job done is what I worked because I enjoyed the work.

 

[IRstuff]

" they were found to be in violation of the labor laws"

Only that? Mischarging on government contracts is just out and out illegal. The hourly rate charged is based on an hourly rate paid to the worker performing the work. To receive payment, yet not disburse the funds is both fraud and grand larceny.

"You really have to question working for a company that mandates the extra time. "

Not necessarily. 8 guys working an extra 5 hrs a week is one less head to lay off when the project ends. My present company works very hard to run on the lean side to minimize the layoffs that result from cancelled contracts. But, this does mean that we have to work overtime to make up for the missing bodies. But, fewer people are laid off in the end.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[racookpe1978]

One of the best things about working field services engineering is the simple fact that if I'm on the jobsite (inside the security fence essentially) I'm required to be on the clock. You have no options about chargeable hours or "OT". Sure, it's 7 x 12 hour days - plus 1 hr for turnover each shift, but every hour is paid as either straight time, overtime rate, or as a straight rate on extra hours. (So you might get a 8 hour day + 4 hours OT, or a Sunday of 12 hours at 1.5 rate, or a 13 huor day at a straight rate, but all hours are accountable and are counted.) Travel time and travel expenses and per diem at each jobsite is paid, so out-of-pocket expenses are small. (unless you have a big appetite for expensive restaurant food. )

Then again, when I'm not at the jobsite or on the company's overhead for training or travel or computer work or whatever, I'm not paid.

At former companies, I'd be on a 40 hour salary but a 50+ hour work week.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Years ago when I was still working for a company that manufactured bakery machinery I spent a lot of time doing start-ups. When I first started as full-time employee (I co-opted there while I was in school) as was on salary and did not get either OT nor ever straight time when working more than 40 hours a week, and of course, when you were in field an 8 day and 40 hour week was only a dream. However, late in 1971 President Nixon imposed what became known as 'wage & price' controls which limited the amount of pay increases which could be given to us workers and since it was the policy of my company that then wages increase were given to salaried employees that the amount of OT worked the previous year would be factored in so as to make it 'fair', however since they could no longer do this the management decided to remove from salary status all the engineering staff which really were not considered managers. Prior to this, the definition of an 'exempt employee', at least at our company, was a bit loose and so all engineers, even if you were just out of school and still basically on probation and 'in training' (something I avoided since I had already worked 25 months for the company during my co-opt time) was automatically on salary.

Anyway, I was moved to an hourly status which at first seemed to be an insult but over the next 3 years, during the period when the 'wage & price' controls were in effect, I actually benefited. I got paid for my OT and when in the field, we got a per diem of 85 cents an hour (this was in the early 70's so 85 cents was pretty significant), which was added on before your OT was computed, plus of course all your expenses. There were some trips where you were ripping out old equipment and installing a new line where time was critical, or you were repairing something which had broken down, we'd work 16 hours a day for week or more at a stretch. While we were gone our checks would continue to come based on 40 hours but after you got back to office you'd add the extra hours to your next timesheet to catch-up and since you were limited to only entering a 2-digit number I often had several checks in a row where I was getting paid for 99 hours.

Well this was working out so well that even when the 'wage & price' controls were officially ended, those of us who were still not in a supervisory role remained on a weekly status (i.e. paid by the hour). By then I didn't really care since I was still being treated as a 'professional' by my peers and my management just that I was getting paid for my actual effort. However, when we installed our first CAD system in 1977 the gravy boat came to an end over an unexpected consequence. Since CAD was very expensive back then ($100,000+ per seat when you added the hardware and software together) and since we only had a 4-seat system, we needed to get the most out of so we set-up shifts for the people using the CAD system (two 8-hour shifts with an hour overlap). Well this went on for about a month when someone was informed that since at least us 'engineers' who were wotking on system that since we were hourly we were violating the rules imposed by the company's liability and workmen compensation insurance since we were NOT actually working OT therefore hourly employees were not allowed to be on company property except during the normal office hours of 8:00am to 4:30pm. However, salaried employees were covered 24/7 so I was put back on salary status, but with a significant raise so I didn't mind too much (except now I only got paid once a month instead of weekly, which meant that we had to make some changes to way we dealt with household expenses and such).

The only downside was when I went into the field and I would call-in on Thursday with a job status. When you were getting paid by the hour with that extra per diem, we'd often be told to fly home on Friday. However, once I was back on salary, they'd say that perhaps you should make sure that everythings OK and stay through the weekend, flying home on Monday (in the baking industry Saturday is a down-day where maintenance and repairs are done and the production lines restart on Sunday so that the stores will have fresh bread and rolls Monday morning).

Ah yes, the good old days...

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[SNORGY]

That "unvouchered overtime" disease is starting to spread to Canada. In the place I used to work, shortly after I left, management allegedly issued an "encouragement" to the engineers to work a 50-60 hour week - but the extra time was billable to projects.

The "encouraged" engineers responded by coming in a half hour later and leaving a half hour earlier every day, a trend that continues today.

Every place I have worked, and every year I have worked, since 1990 I have been among the first to arrive in the office and the last to leave the office. In the past few years, on those occasions when I have been irritated by it, I have taken my strolls down Mahogany Row in order to assess whether or not if I launched a canon ball down the corridor would someone be around to get hurt. Invariably, no, Mahogany Row has long since been abandoned to the tumbleweed, cockroaches and mice. I only need to walk a couple of blocks if I want to find them busily engaged in getting tanked at Moxies. That is where the revenue earned by my overtime work was ending up.

When you respect the character and integrity of the people and the place you work for, unvouchered overtime is easy to put up with for a while. However, usually people and places like that do not treat unvouchered overtime as something that is to be commanded in the form of a mandatory edict.

If I was working at a place that mandated unpaid overtime, then unless it was to help bail out a project that was going south as a result of something I had a part in, I would start looking for a different place. I have squandered far too many nights and weekends in the office or at home spreading drawings and red-lines out on my pool table only to discover that it rewarded me with nothing but visions of MBAs and accountants having a drink on me at 3:00 in the afternoon every Friday.

 

[moltenmetal]

SNORGY, my thoughts exactly. Treat me (and pay me) as a partner and I'll work as one, irrespective of what it says on the clock. Demand that I work for free while you enjoy the profit and I get only a salary- and a pink slip the minute things slow down- and I'm looking for somewhere else to work BEFORE things slow down.

I wasted too many hours working for a deadbeat company early in my career. Great technical crew, terrible management. What a revelation it was when they cut me down to 4 days per week! By virtue of a government "work share" program, I was paid for half of my missing day, so my salary dropped only 10%. But I stopped the free overtime cold turkey, and went from 60-70 hours per week to 32 on the button- less than half as many hours for 10% less money. The bonus- the only bonus I ever got from those folks- was that I had a full day every week to look for aother job. And I found one.

 

[tempeng]

The first civils company I worked used to get round this by stating that you'll not be paid for "unauthorised" OT. To get your OT approved, it had to OK'd by 2 directors. Essentially, the dept. director would have to physically ask you to put in extra time then, you're timesheet would go off to the regional director and he/she would then decide if you're extra hours were justified.

Guess how many times anyone got OT pay?