kingnero said:
My (amateur) experience on the track says that the front hub gets well over 100°C. Are you talking about oval racing, where the brakes are less solicited than at conventional tracks?
Not oval, "road" racing as we like to call it in the states. 2500-2800lbs cars with 300+bhp. Shooting the wheel studs by the hub with an infrared temp sensor after a stint I was only seeing 220-240F max. I should disclose that running 2 piece style brake rotors with aluminum centers helps tremendously with this. Wheel bearings won't survive very long much higher than that temperature, AFAIK.
ironic metallurgist said:
I don't know any names, but your problem is a going concern in the trucking industry. You might want to start by seeking out engineering consultants specializing in vehicle safety and accident reconstruction. They won't generally have labs, but will work with them. Your state DOT almost certainly has guidelines for this and may be able to steer (sorry) you right
I've contacted a metallurgist testing facility that my "day job" has used in years past. They quoted me $3500 for a failure analysis report. A bit steep for a vanity project, but at the very least I will be sending pieces for material strength and chemical composition analysis.
desertfox said:
Hi mrbebu
Unless you know the loading in terms of force on the wheel in service you cannot predict what the bolt preload should actually be, that said I assume somewhere that an analysis of the wheels on a race car and its loading have been done and it’s that information you need,
Now you mention in a more recent post about the wheels being tested and stripped down several times and re-torqued , so did they use new or the existing nuts when the wheel was reassembled? Reason for asking is if an existing nut/bolt is used then a figure for the preload would or should be below 70% the yield stress, if new bolts were used then that would mean the bolts were originally tightened to give a preload figure of 90% yield stress and should be replaced.
In a nutshell I am saying that if existing bolts have been re-used when in fact they should have been replaced, then this fact alone may also contribute to the failure mode.
I think it is safe to assume that wheel studs and nuts are most certainly treated as reused fasteners so a max of 75% of proof load.
Tmoose said:
It looks to me like there are multiple crack initiations at the 1;30 to 4;30 o'clock position on the stud.
Is that the horse pressure driving torque edge, or the brake torque edge?
If the wheels are hub centric, then I'd kind of expect that cornering forces would mostly tug axially on the studs.
Whereas braking/accelerating would try to bend loose studs, an cause crax to initiate as shown in the picture.
What is the thickness of the wheel thru which the stud passes?
What is the detail on the hub side of the wheel around each stud hole ? A Simple small chamfer at each stud hole ? A full flat face ? Sculptured pockets leaving a "pad" to contact the hub?
How thick is the brake rotor?
How thick is the hub in the vicinity of the studs?
Is the hub sculptured on the backside, so the hub is thin in between the stud holes?
Looks to be horsepower driving edge with crack formation and propagation in that direction (hub rotates counter clockwise from engine torque w.r.t. to the picture below). Missing stud was also broken, but lost in the frenzy during the race:
The constant reversed torque cycles acting perpendicular to the axis of the stud is why I think the rear has been more prone to potential loosening and then failure.
Correct on hubcentric wheel and lateral/cornering forces pulling axially on the studs. The friction interface should ideally be resisting engine torque and braking torque.
Wheel thickness is 16-17mm from the hub face to the top of the 60 degree cone where the lug nut sits.
Hub side of wheel face:
Brake rotor thickness is 7-8mm.
The hub is uniform thickness with small pockets on the backside to allow the stud head to sit parallel to the hub face. Hub is 0.375" (9.5mm) thick where studs install.
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So in the meantime I've started to check bolt stretch w.r.t. torque settings (10 lbs-ft increments) on a bench setup. I'm using 3 different lug nuts, 2 have a dry lubricant coating and are very popular in racing and the other 3 are just a typical chrome like finish with no lubricants. The particular wheel is an OEM aluminum wheel with a 60° taper seat with no steel/s.steel inserts.
I'm discovering the comment earlier about taper seats directly on aluminum being a crime has some real validity (no surprise). Especially with dry lug nuts. I'm finding that anything passed a particular torque value has no effect on bolt stretch, just a large increase in friction (I'm also measuring loosening torque).
I'm sourcing another aluminum wheel that is very popular in the track/racing world as I suspect the wheel I'm using, although OEM, is softer than what is typically used on track (need to check hardness on it still). I will be repeating the tests with lubrication on the lug seats and threads, as well as at elevated temperatures.