False Bill of Sale 6

[UtilityLouie]

I'm just wondering what everyone else thought about this thought:

When you're in school and have math, logic and science aptitude, you get pushed toward engineering or sciences.

Now, at least where I'm at, it seems that the engineering career has nothing to do with math or science --- maybe 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time my job requires written and verbal skills. I'm somewhat lucky because there is spell and grammar check in MS Word - maybe not here if there are any errors and have the gift of gab. Is anyone else out there running into this?

I know this may be just someone getting older and grouchier just wanting to start something up, but... Why trick kids into thinking that they can actually work in the areas of their strengths (and likes) and then crapping them out with a career that actually requires skills they need to develop(and in all possibility dislike)?

Why make engineering students take Calc 1 thru 3, diff. eqs., linear alg., etc. if you're not going to be using anything other than a spreadsheet for the rest of your career?

I'm glad I started out and had to do heat loss calcs by hand and had to use the psyc chart. Now it's so automated by software, bosses want the engineer to delegate those tasks to a designer, have you do a cursory review and write "cover your butt" letters and proposals all day long.

Just carpin'... anyone else want to complain?

 

[msquared48]

I'm in business for myself, and If I cannot communicate with my clients in a professional manner, verbally and in writing, I'm dead. You're learning a portion of the business they do not tell you about in school. Cherish it. You will not regret it in the future when you are the manager.



Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[UtilityLouie]

I agree with your statement and haven't hated learning a new skill. I'm just suggesting that our schooling doesn't necessarily tie in with what we should be learning.

That --- and the fact that owners/managers are pushing us to be more administrative and less technical.

 

[TGS4]

Going through Uni, we had a 3rd-year class called "Oral and Written Communications" That class has ranked #1 on a usefulness survey (of past students) since they started offering the class. #2 was "Engineering Economics". We knew this going into 3rd-year, and all the alumni I had talked to also said this.

 

[Gymmeh]

They teach you all the math because A) someone has to make the modeling programs, B) if you dont know the limitations of equations and the concepts behind the programs your bound the have a failure. C) There are enough engineering positions that require it.

For example, I am in the crane industry. (its been in the news alot lately) On at least three occasions this year I have seen “Engineers” over relay on their software package and create designs that did not pass inspection, had major design errors that required field modification, and in one case complete refund because the design was beyond fixing.
In all of this jobs, had the Engineer/Design used a simple check, they would have gotten a red flag that something was wrong with the design.

For just about every design I make, I will back-up a spread sheet calculations with a simplified “out-of-the-book” general case equation by hand as a check. If it’s within an order of magnitude I can sleep at night. If it’s off, I re-evaluate the ob/design/equations/assumptions, and try not to have an anxiety attack. Doing all that h in school should give you enough confidence to make correct and repeatable calculations.

 

[TheTick]

And what percentage of people can do the 10% of your job that is math? Tha's what makes it engineering and not "tinkering".

It's engineering, not science. Engineering is a combination of math, science, business, and communication.

 

[UtilityLouie]

I agree with all comments!

Notice that TGS4 only mentioned ONE course in writen and verbal communication.

Getting my BS, we had a written communication course and a separate speech/presentation course. Still not enough!

 

[TheTick]

When I was in high school, the most vocal advocate of solid, professinal writing skills was my physics teachers. All of the English teachers were lost in their literary worlds, far removed from any real need for communication.

In the navy, an officer's career could live or die by writing skills. Officers and NCO's are constantly on the spot to communicate effectively in writing and also orally to large groups.

As an engineer in industry, it is your job to understand technical issues facing a project owned by your employer. It is your responsibility to make most effective use of this knowledge for your employer, and to aid others in non-technical disciplines in making sound decisions that are affected by technical issues.

 

[Gymmeh]

Star to Tick.

 

[Twoballcane]

"The other 90% of the time my job requires written and verbal skills."

Are you even an engineer? It sounds like you are more on the management side. Who are doing the calcs for you? I hope not the designers.

"Why make engineering students take Calc 1 thru 3, diff. eqs., linear alg., etc. if you're not going to be using anything other than a spreadsheet for the rest of your career?"

Well I still use calculus every once and awhile at work. However, the reason you learn the math in college is 1) so you can understand where the equations came from in your engineering classes and 2) the only way to understand physics is thru the math. Everything around you can be described by calculus, diff eqs, and linear alg, you just failed to apply it to your job. If you took the time to figure out how to use what you learned in college and apply it to your design, then you would be doing engineering work. If not, you just turning bolts.

“I'm glad I started out and had to do heat loss calcs by hand and had to use the psyc chart. Now it's so automated by software, bosses want the engineer to delegate those tasks to a designer, have you do a cursory review and write "cover your butt" letters and proposals all day long.”

Well there you go, you have designers doing engineering work and have no idea what they are doing, but when the design blows up they will blame you.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[cvg]

generally, both owners and managers are engineers also who had the same sort of education you did. If they require you to push papers, it's because they are delegating the work they used to do. However, think back to your school days and be honest, if you had the choice would you have taken an elective in english, theater, public speaking or debate? Or would you have taken a more interesting one (that didn't require any communication)? If you were introverted like a lot of engineers are, joining the debate team or toastmasters is the last thing you would do. Writing letters to the editor was also probably not high up on your list of pastimes. I agree that to be a well rounded student, there should probably be more emphasis on communication skills - and that goes for any student, not just engineers.

 

[dvd]

My thinking on this is:

1.) If you are good at math and/or science you really should consider a career in math and/or science. I think it is a big mistake to push kids into engineering just because they will do good in some of the engineering classes.

2.) Engineering school is comprised of numerous math based classes because a large majority of engineering professors can't do anything else. They went straight through school and never did anything practical, thus they spit out the same fertilizer that they learned from their uninformed professors.

 

[KENAT]

So I do think there is a lot more to engineering than just the math but the math is pretty darn important.

I think a lot of courses could be improved with some more classes that are more directly applicable to most work situations (be it technical or soft), but; what do you drop? Or do you make the courses even longer?

Degrees seem to lay a foundation on which you can build. For instance, mechanical engineering is a very broad field, if you try to focus the degree more you risk limiting the fields graduates can go into etc.

I agree with others about being able to validate out put from programs and understanding basically what the program is doing etc.

UtilityLouie I have some sympathy for what you say but think you're taking it way too far.

I do agree though with not pushing kids to Engineering just because they are good a math & science. So many people at my uni were on my course because they were good at math & science, not because they gave a damn about Engineering in general or Aero in particular.

Made it a lot more difficult for people like me who weren't quite as book smart but really wanted to be an engineer, while they took their jobs as computer programmers, journalists or as managment consultants etc.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[lansford]

DVD has some good points.
I am in this field because I was good at taking things apart and fixing things. I was average in math and science. One major college admissions counsellor felt I wasn't fit for engineering.
I really like my field and I think I am successful because of the reasons I chose this field.

JIM

 

[drywall]

Further to what Lansford wrote. Probably some of you took two semesters of Differential Equations in school and haven't used it since. But even though it may have been years ago when you were in college, you remain a champion at Algebra and Trigonometry, which you do use, and therein lies some of the value of your study. So many other folks have no idea about the simplest mathematics

 

[ivymike]

hmmm... there was a time in my career when I used calculus. I haven't recently. I don't feel the least bit jipped at not having to do that anymore, but I do feel like it added some valuable seasoning to my "that'llbreak-o-meter."

 

[JJPellin]

The math and physics in school is a good filter to keep the kids that aren't really very smart from becoming engineers. It needs to be complex and difficult to weed out the mediocre students and slackers from getting engineering degrees. And you have to do the math in order to trust the results later. One of the problems I see with non-engineers working in engineering roles is that they sometimes don't believe what the math is telling them. They try to use "common sense" to explain that they think should happen rather than trusting the results of the math and physics. I wouldn't change that part. But I think we do need more focus on writing and speaking skills. An engineer needs to be a motivational speaker, a salesman, a cheerleader, a teacher and certainly a writer.

Johnny Pellin

 

[Gymmeh]

hehe, JP- I ain't doin' any cheerleading!!!!

 

[SomptingGuy]

If you guys feel cheated about your lack of use of science & maths, you're in the wrong job. Some of us still use it every day.

- Steve

 

[Twoballcane]

Here Here Somptinguy. I agree with you. Also, if you don't use it, you will loose it. For Mechanicals, if it moves, heats, cools, drops, vibes, ... etc you should be using what you learned in your Mechanical Engineering classes to design it, if not, your just guessing which is dangerous. Anything and everything can be described by what we learned from our engineering classes. If your not using what you’ve learned at college at your job, than you’ve cheated yourself. Please don’t blame others.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."