FE/PE exam failures 2

[RDK]

I don’t want to get flamed by those who are qualified, competent engineers just not PE’s and who work in an industry exempt area but I cannot help but to ask this question:

How many people are there out there are in industrial exempt area because they are not qualified to write or capable of writing the FE or PE exams?

With a 20% failure rate on an exam that simply purports to test the basic core knowledge that should be common to every engineer, there must be some who are not capable of passing this basic exam and are working in industry exempt areas. With a similar passing rate for the PE exam, there must be some who are not capable of passing this exam but are working in industry exempt areas as well.

I realize that the PE is not common in some areas and that there are capable, knowledgeable and competent individuals in exempt areas, but where do those who cannot pass the exams go to make a living? I cannot help but to think that a significant number of them end up in exempt areas.

Not that’s something to think about the next time you get on a US build airliner. Who really did design this thing?

Please don’t flame me. I just cannot help but to wonder.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[BML]

I've known a few such people. They all happened to work in industries where having a PE was necessary for advancement. For some it meant a lack of promotion until the exam was passed (one took 4 or 5 attempts).

For others, they eventually became fed up with the test/work/management and left the industry. In my opinion this is just sour grapes (and I don't even have a license yet). But they were also the type of people who I wouldn't trust to tie my shoes, license or not.

 

[dig1]

I work in an exempt area but have my PE as do many of my coworkers.

Some of the ones who do not have theirs would not pass but most would. My company goes by streaks wanting everyone to get it (and paying for it) then saying it isn't necessary and not paying for it. I paid for my own and keep my own registration current.

However, there are some in our company with their PE and I wonder how they ever got it. I don't know if I'd fly on a plane they designed (if that was our business). Fortunately, they have generally moved out of design.

 

[leanne]

Some people just test well. Sad, but true. It's true in every industry where certification/licensing is required.

There are incompetent doctors who should not be practicing medicine.

There are idiots who pass the bar.

There are CPAs who shouldn't have access to a checkbook.

Why would the registered engineering community be exempt from having a loser pool?

I cannot help but to think that a significant number of them end up in exempt areas.

Some leave engineering completely. With a degree in engineering, you can do a lot of things. You can teach math or science in middle/high school. Getting a teaching certificate is fairly simple. You can go into management in any number of businesses. An engineering position is not the only option for an engineering graduate.

 

[swertel]

In contrast to leanne, there are also engineers who DON'T test well. I know of a couple that are extraordinary at their jobs -- which are specialized, but they don't make time to study for the exam which is generalized. They also can't handle the stress of an 8 hour exam. Time after time they fail the exam, but they are still great industry-exempt engineers.

Quite frankly, if test taking gives you heartburn and you are a successful engineer in the field of your choice, why take the exam? That is the question we that are PEs and are pursuing PEs need to answer and show the non-PEs why they should continue to strive for registration.

--Scott

For some pleasure reading, the Round Table recommends FAQ731-376

 

[xnuke]

Don't forget, using your PE license could result in liability lawsuits. I have several PE coworkers who refuse to stamp and sign their work (here at our exempt facility) because our company will not pay for their liability insurance, though being licensed counts in their favor toward advancement. Thus, any work that needs to be done by a PE is contracted out, which could end up costing the company more in the long run.

xnuke

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[electricpete]

I thought exempt facility meant that no stamp or PE signature is required (?). Why contract out?

 

[BobPE]

electripete:

engineering you do within the facility for the facility need not be stamped, most of the time I might add. Nuke plants however are a hybrid of public/private entities as are a lot of industries. A lot of the rules require designs to be PE'ed...I do a lot of work in this arena, and xnuke is right, I get compensated very well.....

BobPE

 

[electricpete]

I take from xnuke's handle that he is no longer in nuc industry.

I am currently working at a nuke plant. Original design documents were stamped because it involved an outside a/e providing services to a utility. Modifications to the plant/drawings are routinly done by competent folks who don't stamp (some have PE's, some don't, none of them stamp).

 

[BJC]

As an Xnuc with a PE who has stamped drawings I can tell you it's a moot point. The lawyers go after the deep pockets - which are very rarely engineers.
Points to consider: 1.) Your employers insurance should cover you. 2.) Make sure your assets are in joint custody with your wife/husband. 3.) If 2 is not an option see what you lawyer has to say.
4.) buying your own insurance is not practical, it cost to much and as soon as you stop paying your not covered. Something you screwed up 10 years ago is not covered if you stop paying the premimums.

The PE stamp just gives some people a level of confidence that your are a "Certified Smart Person".
Most Nukes don't need things to be stamped. Nukes are regulated by the Federal Goverment. PE stamps are issued by the States.

 

[BobPE]

BJC:

I tend to agree with you on your points....Having worked with FERC, they require anything and everything to be stamped, except if it is coming from government agencies like the Corps of Engineers...they are exempt as is FERC...Go figure....FERC is preddy different in that any state PE can be used, since they are a government agency the recognize all states licenses...The states also have a big say in nukes and they require stamps also....

I do disagree with your lawyer comment though LOL....i am known for my anti lawyer opinions LOL....Lawyers hate having engineers on the stand because they are always right, and have the ability to prove it....Engineers dont allow lawyers to spin the facts to prove their points...LOL....

BobPE

 

[electricpete]

At risk of repeating myself, here is my understanding:

When an A/E or design firm provides the service for another organization such as private industry, utility, government, etc then PE stamp is always required. That is what happened during our nuc plant construction. That is why Bob had to provide stamp for FERC-related work. That is why Bob probably has to provide PE stamp for anything.

When the work is done within one organization (the one that owns the facility), than is when the exemption applies and stamp is not required. That is why we need no stamp when modifying our own plant.

 

[electricpete]

Last paragraph applies when work is within one organization AND the other exempt requirements apply.

 

[BobPE]

yes electricpete you are right....my work is either overflow work, complex tasks, or permit work for agencies outside the plant...

anyone within the company would be crazy to use their seal with the exempt status....

BobPE

 

[BJC]

BobPE.
You hit upon the one point that hasn't been mentioned in this string. PEs are expert witnesses. You are qualified to testify on techical matters. The last time I did it we got $1000 a day, I sure it's more than now.

 

[electricpete]

I guess I'm feeling argumentative. So here I go....

1 - I'm pretty sure that PE is not a requirement for expert witnesses. Sure it may help, in the same way as a degree or experience or anything else. But not a requirement. (correct me if I'm wrong).

2 - What exactly does it have to do with this thread?

 

[BobPE]

lol electricpete, it doesnt have much to do with the thread, but then the thread evolved into something different like they always do...

No, expert witneses dont need to be PE's, but if they discuss engineering they do...anyone can be an expert, only a PE can be an expert engineering witnes and speak of engineering in court...a court is a public arena, to speak engineering to the public, you must have a PE...I think it was brought up as another reason to get the PE...

BobPE

 

[BJC]

Electricpete
Sorry wasn't trying to change the subject, I thought it was dfifting away from the original question a little.
If you are a PE you will be accepted as an expert witness without much of a hassel. IF you are you may be questioned as to the area of expertise, like if your a power engineer you won't get far testifying on intergrated circuits.

If you work for a company and designed a gizmo that hurts someone or starts a fire you may not be qualified as an expert witness on that item. Your testimony may have as much weight as a truck drivers.
I don't agree with the original premis of this thread that people who work in exempt industries are there because they couldn't pass the test. Most I have known didn't see the need, or want to spend the time and effort on something that had no return at all.

 

[electricpete]

A new direction for the thead is ok.

What I understood you guys to say was that someone without a PE cannot testify as an expert witness in engineering.

I don't know for sure but I am just a little skeptical of that. I have heard of retired fire chiefs testifying as experts on the cause of electrical fires. Is there some risk to the public created by this testimony? If not, on what basis is PE required?

 

[Binary]

I don't think the PE thing is required to be an expert witness. Being an expert is simply in the minds of the jurors; I don't think it's some sort of formal designation handed down by the court.

I know one of my professors in school was not a PE but did sit an expert witness in aircraft liability cases. His expert status was augmented by the fact that he'd been a military pilot before earning his doctorate in engineering.

Being an expert witness is as much about knowledge as it is about titles.

That said, having a PE will augment the credibility of witness.