DBallz Sprinklerz
Mechanical
how do you guys know when you are supposed to survey something, or when you can get away without a survey and just fudge something on the plans?
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field surveys
- Thread starter DBallz Sprinklerz
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SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
I found out a long time ago to never just fudge. If I can't figure it out how are the fitters supposed to do it?
It never looks good to the client (or my company) when a contractor issues an RFI about something I chose to "fudge" because I did not want to take if off adequately or correctly.
It typically means "fudge" on my face and my company typically has to pay for any costs associated with it.
If it takes an extra hour during design, then it costs you $150 (or whatever your billing rate is). A drawing or specification change plus the cost of extra piping/labor/etc. will cost a whole lot more.
It typically means "fudge" on my face and my company typically has to pay for any costs associated with it.
If it takes an extra hour during design, then it costs you $150 (or whatever your billing rate is). A drawing or specification change plus the cost of extra piping/labor/etc. will cost a whole lot more.
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DBallz Sprinklerz
Mechanical
this is all assuming this is a real job, and not some type of government targeting operation.
don't the fitters just figure it out in the field?
if i have an estimator's drawing already, how much more can i really contribute by 'surveying' the existing system?
don't the fitters just figure it out in the field?
if i have an estimator's drawing already, how much more can i really contribute by 'surveying' the existing system?
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- #5
DBallz Sprinklerz
Mechanical
and then, what if the company doesn't care about the survey, and you go out when you're not supposed to, then they think you're stealing time, and you get fired? how does that work?
The reason for my somewhat terse answers have been experience with the sprinkler contractor taking my design and running with it. Little discrepancies can turn into a "contest of wills" during construction. If i do my due diligence, then there is less room for the contractor to be able sway the owner that I am incorrect or that my company has to pay for a change order. Have a few of those under your belt and you will see my point.
Now I do not take off every piece of pipe, so if you call that "fudging it" - ok. But if I indicate a pipe is 3" and it is actually 2", that can affect the sizing of the sprinkler piping.
And every project I have worked on, the fitters do not figure it out in the field. They work from drawings with pipe/fittings dimensioned to the inch and every elevation marked. This is required for the hydraulic calculations. If they try to get creative, they invalidate the hydraulic calculations and then it has to be installed per the plans or they have to redo the calculations.
Again, I would rather spend a little more time during design than time and a change order during construction.
Now I do not take off every piece of pipe, so if you call that "fudging it" - ok. But if I indicate a pipe is 3" and it is actually 2", that can affect the sizing of the sprinkler piping.
And every project I have worked on, the fitters do not figure it out in the field. They work from drawings with pipe/fittings dimensioned to the inch and every elevation marked. This is required for the hydraulic calculations. If they try to get creative, they invalidate the hydraulic calculations and then it has to be installed per the plans or they have to redo the calculations.
Again, I would rather spend a little more time during design than time and a change order during construction.
I'm still waiting for a project where "fudging it" actually gets me ahead on something/anything...but every time something is fudged it ends up costing me and the project much more than if the drawings were developed properly. Taking that a step further, if someone under me fudges something on my plans I won't seal them and if I see the contractor isn't doing their diligence the submittal won't be approved.
We're talking about a life safety system not ductwork, toilets, or ceiling tiles so understanding, diligence, and quality control are much more important (IMO) in our industry versus some others and for those that don't hold their trade in high regard needs to find something else to do. Not saying that's you, just sharing my opinion/experience.
We're talking about a life safety system not ductwork, toilets, or ceiling tiles so understanding, diligence, and quality control are much more important (IMO) in our industry versus some others and for those that don't hold their trade in high regard needs to find something else to do. Not saying that's you, just sharing my opinion/experience.
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- #9
DBallz Sprinklerz
Mechanical
sprinklers said:
my first job, the head field super, takes my drawing and says 'this is what we do with your drawings in the field', and crumples it up and throws it in the garbage.
then i move states, get a job at a top notch company where they actually do real sprinkler work, and i throw it away to go to another chop shop like the first, because i didn't know what it meant to work in a real sprinkler shop a real good place, now i'm back to crumpled papers, i doubt these guys give a crap either way,
but i'll survey tomorrow morning and get it over with, because that's what i believe is the right thing to do.
maybe one day, i'll recover this career
"""""""DBallz Sprinklerz (Mechanical)
(OP)
23 Apr 18 17:23
this is all assuming this is a real job, and not some type of government targeting operation.
don't the fitters just figure it out in the field?
if i have an estimator's drawing already, how much more can i really contribute by 'surveying' the existing system? """""""
"""" don't the fitters just figure it out in the field? """"
It would be nice if every fitter,,
Knew what NFPA 13 is
Knew the basics of NFPA 13
Knew how to look up a problem in NFPA 13
Read the manufacture installation instructions for specific sprinklers.
(OP)
23 Apr 18 17:23
this is all assuming this is a real job, and not some type of government targeting operation.
don't the fitters just figure it out in the field?
if i have an estimator's drawing already, how much more can i really contribute by 'surveying' the existing system? """""""
"""" don't the fitters just figure it out in the field? """"
It would be nice if every fitter,,
Knew what NFPA 13 is
Knew the basics of NFPA 13
Knew how to look up a problem in NFPA 13
Read the manufacture installation instructions for specific sprinklers.
MatthewJWillis
Mechanical
I find it concerning you ask the question, "how much more can i really contribute by 'surveying' the existing system?"
Our job as Designers is to take the "Guess", and make it real, based on prescriptive standards. If you do not have the information, get it. If your company is comfortable not providing/getting the required information on a regular basis, get another company.
cdafd, it is not the fitter's job to know 13. Is it better if they do? Of course. I do know what you are saying though..
If the foreman has to place a call to you, then you did not do your job. Of course this is a frame of mind and not an actuality. It is a frame of mind however, that appears to be non-existent these days. There is no button we can push, and the information magically appear on the drawing.
You do realize that this line of thinking is quite literally advocating for no need for your job? If the estimator guesses close enough, and the field figures out the rest, then hell, time for me to fish. Or camp. Camping is cool too.
R/
Matt
Our job as Designers is to take the "Guess", and make it real, based on prescriptive standards. If you do not have the information, get it. If your company is comfortable not providing/getting the required information on a regular basis, get another company.
cdafd, it is not the fitter's job to know 13. Is it better if they do? Of course. I do know what you are saying though..
If the foreman has to place a call to you, then you did not do your job. Of course this is a frame of mind and not an actuality. It is a frame of mind however, that appears to be non-existent these days. There is no button we can push, and the information magically appear on the drawing.
You do realize that this line of thinking is quite literally advocating for no need for your job? If the estimator guesses close enough, and the field figures out the rest, then hell, time for me to fish. Or camp. Camping is cool too.
R/
Matt
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- #12
The requirement of the "field survey" is one of the "Lessons Learned" in the project post-mortem because of the extra time and cost spent for the required field construction corrections.
On the other hand, it's sad to say that the "Lessons Learned" is still repeat as one of the thing never learned for the project overrun of both schedule and cost.
On the other hand, it's sad to say that the "Lessons Learned" is still repeat as one of the thing never learned for the project overrun of both schedule and cost.
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