Fire Department Connection - Building Wall or Remote Location

[John_187]

Recently, a comment came up on a project regarding the location of the fire department connection. I've usually seen these installed in the exterior wall of the building. But the local fire marshall was requesting it be mounted remotely, in the landscaping a few feet away from the building. It would be a "yard hydrant" style fire department connection.

Does anyone know if the above suggestion about remote fire department connections is an actual code, or just the fire marshall being a control freak?

Thanks

 

[MatthewJWillis]

8.17.2.4.6* Fire department connections shall be located at
the nearest point of fire department apparatus accessibility or
at a location approved by the authority having jurisdiction.

So it is a standard requirement.
Keep in mind, there are many other considerations that go into that decision.

R/
Matt

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Matthew is correct, it is totally the call of the local fire official who has to use the equipment.

I like em on a wall because if you run from the building out to an FDC what kind of shape will that underground be in 50 years or so?

 

[cdafd]

Sounds like a local requirement

Ours is fdc’s with in 100 ft of fire hydrant.

So for various reasons projects will move the fire hydrant closer or do a yard fdc

The other thinking is with a yard fdc,
The fire truck sets away from the building,
So if building collapse, does not fall on the fire truck

 

[UFT12]

The requirement of the AHJ makes total sense as there must be an easy way for the pump truck to get water from a hydrant and have a nearby FDC to pump water in. That's why NFPA 14 mandates a maximum distance of 100 ft from the FDC location to a hydrant (see 6.4.5.4 of 14). However the OP does not mention whether standpipes are to be supplied by this FDC or not. But the argument of the AHJ comes mainly due to concerns about two reasons addressed in the following clauses of NFPA 14,

6.4.5.1 Fire department connections shall be visible and recognizable
from the street or nearest point of fire department
apparatus accessibility or on the street side of buildings.

6.4.5.1.1 Fire department connections shall be located and
arranged so that hose lines can be attached to the inlets without
interference from nearby objects, including buildings,
fences, posts, landscaping, vehicles, or other fire department
connections.

Although the above clauses are not found in NFPA 13, the intent and overall understanding is very similar. So, if all three clauses are satisfied, one could win the argument with the AHJ to let the FDC nearer to the system (e.g. wall mounted) and save some bucks.

 

[stookeyfpe]

FDC location requirements in the model fire codes (IFC, NFPA 1) grant the AHJ the authority to establish where the FDC will be located. FDC placement in my fire department is driven by our Operational Policies as well as trying to be flexible with the owner's desires. In certain cases we don't allow the FDC to be located on a building such as a chemical storage building because we want some distances between the Engine company supplying the sprinkler system and the potential release of a hazardous material. I don't expect sprinkler designers or owners to consider these type of variables but this is a common instance where a remote FDC is appropriate.

 

[John_187]

Thank you all for the responses. This building is a 2 story power plant control building. So there shouldn't be any stairwell stand pipes. Does this change anyone's take on it? Thanks

 

[cdafd]

Sounds like a local requirement

If you want to wrestle

Find out if it is an adopted requirement by ordinance

Or a because I want it

If not adopted or actual law, legally they MAY not be able to enforce it, so from there the wrestling begins.

 

[TravisMack]

The FDC end user is the responding FD. When all hell is breaking loose, do you really want them searching for the FDC. As far as the interior sprinkler system and piping, give the owner what they want within the requirements of the standards. For the FDC and standpipe equipment, give the FDC what they want, within reason of course. They are the end users of that equipment.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

"Follow" us at

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

 

[cdafd]

Two things I tell my boss

The firefighters should pre plan the building and visit it once in awhile.

Plus, if they are connecting to the fdc for a sprinkler system only,,

May just have more problems than normal.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

If I read it right I think Stookey hit it right on the head.

If a building is high hazard then the FDC should be safely off the building but in most cases there shouldn't be an issue with the FDC's located on a building.

Like Downtown Atlanta where nearly all, if not all, FDC's are on the buildings. Seems to me that if any FDC should be located off a building it would be the FDC serving the 20 story building.

The way a number of jurisdictions in this area interpret the standard is that the correct way to install an FDC is to take a 4" like off the system above the alarm check valve, or between the check valve and dry valve in the case of a dry system, drop down under the floor running between 40' and 200' of 4" underground to a yard FDC. Got to tell you I don't like this at all.

So you got a dry underground line and I can only wonder if it will hold fire department pressures in 10, 30 or 50 years down the road?

Most of these lines are never tested. I know, they are supposed to be hydrostatically tested but a good number of them, not installed my me, have never seen water much less a pressure test. And then there is the issue of draining... it wasn't long ago that installers literally bury a ball drip check in a pile of gravel. Obviously the ball drip check wouldn't see a human face for a century or so.

If it were up to me with a few exceptions (high hazard) all FDC's would be mounted on the building and if it is felt a danger then require two FDC's on opposite sides of a building with a common feed feeding all systems if there is more than one.

 

[John_187]

Thanks again for the responses. What about this as a factor: Lightweight construction type? I found a vague article, but it did not reference a code section.

Is this a consideration for why a remote FDC is preferred by the fire marshall? If so, are you aware of what code this is coming from? Thanks

 

[cdafd]

Thanks again for the responses. What about this as a factor: Lightweight construction type? I found a vague article, but it did not reference a code section.

Is this a consideration for why a remote FDC is preferred by the fire marshall? If so, are you aware of what code this is coming from? Thanks



Sounds more along the way of worried about building collapse

With the lightweight construction

 

[stookeyfpe]

Lightweight construction is one of those terms the fire service invented and now it's found it's way into many discussions. Lightweight construction is a term that describes certain wood framing systems used in single family dwellings (and a fair amount of multi-family dwellings) construction. I've typically equated the fire service's use of the term light weight construction as a categorization of the use TJI joists and beams and wood trusses constructed with staples or stapled gusset plates. It's a completely legal system of construction but under fire exposure it has a tendency to fail rapidly. When I explain lightweight construction to fire fighters, I always include the phrase "less mass but more math." In other words, as computing power has increased and the methods of construction have advanced, engineers have been able to develop less expensive designs for constructing wood-frame buildings while still meeting the design load and load path requirements in International Building Code and ASCE 7.

If the FDC location is creating this much drama, one approach to take is how the building is protected. If this is a NFPA 13 sprinkler system and if the building is combustible construction, one could possibly justify locating the FDC on the building based on it's occupancy, how the concealed spaces are protected, and comparing this to US Fire Sprinkler Performance data published by NFPA. If the building is 1 story business or mercantile occupancy, is accessible from all sides by the Fire Department, and the FDC can be located at a corner so the firefighters have an escape path, one could at least show that the fire loss history in the buildings is so low in sprinklered buildings that the expense of a remote FDC is not justified. The approving FD may have an amendment that requires remote FDCs.

To your question:

Is this a consideration for why a remote FDC is preferred by the fire marshall? If so, are you aware of what code this is coming from? Thanks

We don't know. If this project is in the US, the jurisdiction probably has adopted either the International Fire Code or NFPA 1, Fire Code. If the IFC has been adopted, Section 912 establishes requirements for the the installation of FDCs. I rarely use NFPA 1 so I don't know if it has specific provisions for FDCs. I suspect so but I've just never looked. Ask the fire code official for the code section being referenced.