FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost 1

[Skogsgurra]

Being the nerd I am, I couldn't resist buying the new FLUKE 200 MHz, all insulated four channel colour scope.

I like most of it. Battery life is good - a full day's work on an airport and still some battery left at the end of the day. But the plastic BNC connectors are delicate like they have been for decades. And internal memory is a mere 15 recordings 'deep'.

Not to worry, I thought. There's always the USB port. Just save data on USB sticks and use Flukeview 5 to get it back to the computer and into your report. good thinking - but no luck, I could not get the data back.

Yes, I could get the data back to internal memory in the scope. But not able to transfer that data from internal memory to computer. The 'native' data (data that were stored directly in internal memory) could be tranferred with no problems, but not data that had been stored to USB and then taken back to INT.

I prize my luck that I did save the more important measurements in INT and not USB. All I can do now with the USB data is to get them back as BMP. Coarse and not at all what my customer expected - and not me either.

Anyone knows what to do? Is there a magic trick so I can make USB data behave as well as the internally stored data?



Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I'd be curious to know what Fluke has to say about it...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[electricpete]

I think there is an ability to store the data either as a graph (trendplot) or raw data (scope record). To store the raw data, see "how do I record" here:

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Support/Library/ScopeMeter-FAQs.htm

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[electricpete]

That probably doesn't help you now. If it was not recorded as a scope record in the scopemeter, then there's no way to go back and recreate it.

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[Skogsgurra]

Thanks, Pete.

As I said, I left the more important measurements in the scope's internal memory (INT). And I am happy that I did that.

It is not in RECORDER mode that I have the problem (I probably have, but haven't tested yet) it is in SCOPE mode.

The SAVE menu has two choices: 'Screen + Setup' and 'Replay + Setup'. Nothing else. The funny thing is that the text is identical when saving to INT and saving to USB, although saving to INT seems to preserve all data so I can use zoom, cursor measurements, FFT and other math on it while saving to USB and recalling from there does not even allow zoom - let alone any other function.

I am starting to get quite frustrated. Could as well have bought a Chinese Rigol or similar for a tenth of what the 190-204 costs. Doing a paper machine survey with hundreds of measurements, which is my main use for the scope, will not be an easy task if I have to transfer data to a PC every fiftenth measurement.

The portability, isolated channels, high bandwidth and good battery life was what made me buy the 190-204. Perfect for field work. But the USB problem leaves me with a very poorly functioning 'solution'.

I really hope that there is a way out. But so far, I haven't seen one. And the support line is dead on Sundays.





Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[ScottyUK]

I wonder what format the internal memory is - SD card or similar? Could you replace it with a larger one?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[Skogsgurra]

Good morning, Scotty.

I really hope so. I'm afraid I'll have to ship the instrument back to them if I cannot get a decent solution to this.

I did some more checking. There are three modes; SCOPE, METER and RECORDER.

The RECORDER mode *could* be a way out. But when you want to measure current waveforms with 10 MHz components, a 200 microsecond resolution (fastest in RECORDER mode) is pathetic. There is a glitch cather, but that only says if there has been a glitch wider than 8 ns. It doesn't show waveforms.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

If I can change the INT memory? I couldn't say.

The 2.5 GS/s is probably too fast for an SD or other 'card' memory. Anyhow, there is no immediate access to other than the USB connector from outside. And opening the instrument probably voids a lot of guarantees...

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Hmm...

Saving after measurement needn't be very fast. Perhaps there is an SD or similar. Hope to get a positive answer tomorrow.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[VEBill]

Gunnar, I've used instruments before that could save or export NOTHING except the much-reduced data set representing what appeared on the display screen. The raw information could not be saved or exported on those instruments. Horrible cost cutting; and frustrating until we figured out this severe limitation.

I'm not familiar with your 'scope. I mention this just so you know it's been seen before.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If you do end up with a Rigol, get the lower model, then look for the software mod that turns it into the higher model (doubles the frequency).

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Skogsgurra]

Yes VE1, I have had that, too. Even my relatively modern LeCroy WS 204 does only print a screen bitmap onto the drive when the corresponding button is pressed. But it is possible to make it save a waveform also. But only one waveform at a time. To save all four waveforms on the screen, you have to work through several menues each time.

The FLUKE 190 204 was released 2010 or perhaps 2011. I saw the first ads for it in March this year. So it is a recent development and I thought that they had learned from earlier mistakes and that they would be more generous with memory - it doesn't cost as much as it used to, after all. But, no. They hadn't. They weren't.

My older monochrome FLUKE 199 Scopemeter (also 200 MHz and 2.5 GS/s but only two channels and inputs not insulated) actually seems to work better. The PC connection (via that 'optocoupler interface) never caused any problems but the new 190 204 sometimes can't connect to the PC and I have to restart the PC to get a connection. They still use that COMXX: shit with baudrates starting from 1200 Bd instead of talking directly to the USB hardware like most of us do these days. We have designed two instruments where communication is absolutely transparent and connection is instantaneous. Why cannot FLUKE do that? Compatibility issues? Thanks a lot. I'd rather use two software versions than being forced to use this crap. It is year 2011 - at least over here.

Now, when I was already in a really bad mood, I decided to find out if that old overload problem had been solved. They must have done something these years, i thought. At least the €4000/USD6500 price tag makes me believe that there is something more than colour and two more channels to it. Wrong again.

The problem with the 199 was that if you wanted to examine, say a VFD IGBT anode-cathode voltage drop, with high resolution - you couldn't do that because the vertical amplifier (or something else) got choked and produced artefacts that made you believe there was a problem in the IGBT. This time, I checked that with a simple function generator outputting less than 10 V peak and increased sensitivity gradually. The result can be seen in the attached jpg. Looks like that old problem was not dealt with either.

I feel very disappointed. Have the bean counters taken over FLUKE Corporation also?

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Thanks Dan. Looks like I will do that.

Or use my TiePie USB scopes plus an Eee small computer when I need to do lots of measurements and store the complete results. I have two of those little nice USB scopes (four channels, differential inputs, COLOUR!and stores ALL! data directly to my drive or USB). Very often, the 20 MHz bandwidth they offer is adequate.

My fast PicoScope (the 3206) is way too sensitive and if there are transients on the input signal that exceed the 20 V limit clearly indicated on the instrument, the input gets damaged. Has happened twice. No guarantee - of course - and I therefore do not use PicoScope any more.

For lower bandwidth and real long memory (equals hard disk space) I use our own ARCUS. Ten channels, 12 bit resolution, inputs that can take 1 kV transients without blinking, fast and reliable USB communication. But that's me. I don't expect FLUKE or Pico Technology to come to me to learn how to design instruments. But I feel they could benefit from a visit

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[electricpete]

It is not in RECORDER mode that I have the problem (I probably have, but haven't tested yet) it is in SCOPE mode.

The way I understand it from the FAQ that I linked, that is the problem... you need to be in recorder mode (actually "ScopeRecord") to get the kind of saved numerical data that you're looking for.

:
Q: On the 190 series what is the difference between Scope Record and Trend Plot?
The TrendPlot feature of the 190-series makes the instrument act as a paperless recorder that will collect a series of parameter measurements over time and will show the result as a graph, a trend-line, on screen. The measurements themselves can either be made using the Multimeter or can be any of the measurements that the oscilloscope can make on the waveform, like risetime- or dutycycle-measurements. The resulting TrendPlot graph will thus show the risetime or the dutycycle as it changes over a longer period of time. This is most useful for instance when studying the change of individual parameters over time or the influence of environmental changes like temperature over time.

The ScopeRecord mode on the other hand is a genuine oscilloscope mode: the applied input voltage is registered over time and the resulting waveform is stored in a long memory record.

In other words (my interpretation) "Trendplot" is a simple graph on the screen with no numbers stored. ScopeRecord is the raw data.

Trendplot (screen-saves) are saved under the section labeled "Q: On the 190 series when storing measurements into memory what is the difference between Screen + setup and Record + Setup?"

ScopeRecords (nujmeric data) are saved under the section labeled "Q: How do I record?

Note also that the word "screen copies" is used when describing how the Trendplots are stored under the section "On the 190 series when storing measurements into memory what is the difference between Screen + setup and Record + Setup"

So if you did not follow the instructions for ScopeRecord under "how do I record", then I think you should not expect to have any numeric data saved.

At least that's my interpretation. We have a fluke 190 2-channel, but it has no USB... so I'm just going off what it says in the link.

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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[electricpete]

For lower bandwidth and real long memory (equals hard disk space) I use our own ARCUS. Ten channels, 12 bit resolution, inputs that can take 1 kV transients without blinking, fast and reliable USB communication. But that's me. I don't expect FLUKE or Pico Technology to come to me to learn how to design instruments. But I feel they could benefit from a visit

If your device costs the same as the Fluke Scopemeter, then it's a valid comparison. Otherwise, this is starting to smell like some kin of sales gimmick disguised as a question. Please tell me I'm wrong.

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[electricpete]

Sorry Gunnar, I'm sure that was not your intent. But you've got to admit it is a little bit unfair for someone who sells a product to bash a competitor on the forum by focusing only on the attributes where his own product is better. This is not a sales forum after all.

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[electricpete]

Portability would be another factor to consider if you intend to compare your product to the Fluke Scopemeter.

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[MacGyverS2000]

Pete,

If it were some newbie making such a statement I would be inclined to agree with you... but it's Gunnar we're talking about here.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Skogsgurra]

Pete. Lots of things to answer. I will simplify somewhat.

1. The resolution I need (tens of nanoseconds) is not available in scope record mode (best resolution is 200 us).

2. I think it is fair to say that I am surprised that Fluke still uses an antique way of doing things when a small 'mom and pop' operation like ours have found better ways of doing it. I had no intent to sell anything. But I have insights that I wanted to share.

3. I do not think that I am satisfied with the 190 204. And there are reasons for that.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[electricpete]

The SAVE menu has two choices: 'Screen + Setup' and 'Replay + Setup'. Nothing else.

Read what that means.

Q: On the 190 series when storing measurements into memory what is the difference between Screen + setup and Record + Setup?

A: The 190-series allows for different types of storage:

Storage of 15 screens with set-up information, this is screen copies with the information about the instrument settings as they were during recording of the waveform. The latter helps in determining what the actual amplitude speed of the voltages was as.
Storage of 2 so-called Replay recordings with set-up information. A Replay record is a set of 100 screen copies successively recorded all having the same settings.

So again it seems like you got exactly what the link said you would get (screen prints). In contrast, you should get raw data by recording into a "ScopeRecord" using instructions under "Q: How do I record?"

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(2B)+(2B)' ?