For Review:Engineering Document Submissions 2

[code1]

Dear all,

May I please check with the Engineers in the USA and in Canada, please. I am currently discussing an offer (scope: Process, mech, EIA and equipment for a dryer plant) with a supplier from Canada.

The supplier informed me that he will NOT submit any design calculations to support his design, only a Professional Engineer Stamped Wngineering Drawing. E.g. for a design of a tank (not to ASME), he will provide an endorsed engineering draiwng, but not the calculations to support his design. He informed it is part of his engineering know how and my company does not have access to it, to protect his company's engineering knowledge.

I was like, "Come on, if one goes to Bednar, you can get the design procedures there. I need the calculation to verify your drawing, e.g. weld and thicknesses"

He was like, "Well, I am not going to show another company how to go it. If you wish, you can perform the calculation yourself. I will take out the design package from my offer. You can verify and sign off the calculations yourself".

Is this way Engineers and Companies operate in Canada? (and USA)? I am in Asia now and have worked also in Europe. I have dealt with Clients like Foster Wheeler and Shell as supplier and always provided all calculations. Thanks and regards.

 

[Timelord]

I'm in the US and in my experience this is something that comes up every once in a while. Just write your specifications to require a copy of the calcs and if your vendor does not want to meet your specs, it is a no bid. Deliverables are always listed in the contract, so list your requirement and throw out the bids that do not meet them.

Timelord

 

[Ron]

I agree with Timelord....occasionally you'll see this.

Tell him he probably hasn't invented anything new with his calcs and even offer to sign a confidentiality agreement, but in my thinking if he's not willing to show how he got there, he might have just guessed his way through it.

I ran into a similar situation with an engineer not willing to provide calcs for structural attachment of windows in a high wind area. Intolerable.

 

[code1]

Timelord..
It is was clearly specified in the Bid Specification, so imagine my surprise when informed in the meeting.

Ron..
My thoughts exactly, was the design estimated or/ and guessimated?

I have an obligation to ensure safe designs are installed for the plant, not withstanding the Drawings come certified correct by the PE.

 

[JAE]

It is a past aspect of the engineering community in the US that calculations are a tool that the engineer uses to provide the service that is the value provided to the client.

We had a lengthy discussion of this topic a few years ago (with mixed views).

Technically, the engineer is correct. His calculations are NOT his service to you. Calculations are simply a tool that the engineer uses (like a calculator or PC) to develop an engineering design which is communicated via drawings and specs.

Realistically, more and more clients in the US are requiring calculations to assist them in reviewing the source of the design results...one example I've seen is out west in California, many cities hire licensed engineers to review all plans and calculations.

I'll see if I can post a link to that previous discussion.

 

[JAE]

Here's the link:
thread507-89434

 

[Timelord]

You should have shown them the door right after they told you they would not meet the requirements. In my book, they were wasting your time even submiting a bid.

Timelord

 

[MisterDonut]

This supplier's response is pretty standard for the initial negotiations.
It is reasonable to require the supplier to submit calculations required to show compliance with code. It is not reasonable to require the supplier to provide calculations that support his/her proprietary process.
In a past career with a manufacturer of custom heat recovery equipment, our first reaction would be to not provide any calculations. If pressed, we would offer to supply calculations for seismic design required by local codes.
However, our heat transfer calculations were proprietary and we would not share them outside the company, even with an confidentiality agreement in place.

 

[JLSeagull]

Bad equals typical regarding mechanical package suppliers. See if the PO commercial terms hold out 10% for the documentation listed in the inquiry and PO. Press accounting not to pay that 10% until received. If the package has not been bought, use this as the basis for technically rejecting the supplier.

 

[msquared48]

If he wants your stamp, you need to see the supporting calculations. If not, then let him walk.

He either needs to hire a PE as an employee to stamp his project, or, as previously suggested, you need to sign an agreement of non-disclosure.

I had to do such for a proprietary design for a floating dock system for pleasure craft about 25 years ago, but we had to generate the calculations for the system too. A little different in your case.

Don't negotiate your liability here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[Timelord]

msquared48,

Read the original post!!!! The supplier was proposing to supply stamped drawings, just not the calcs to show how he got there.

Timelord

 

[msquared48]

Timelord:

I know - I read it. Now... please re-read my post again.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[BJC]

Code1
It's not uncommmon to ask for calculations. I have seen insurance companies, local agencies and even the US goverment ask for them.
I have given clinets the backup for short circuit studies for years. They usually don't kow how to read them but they and their insurance companies feel good.

 

[rbulsara]

Well there is no one rule that fits all.

After all it is a business decision, the vendor knows full well that you have a right to refuse his product and he is willing to take that risk. You make your own decision if you really want that tank!

Supplying a tank is not an engineering service. I don't think you will succeed Sony providing you the calcs and schematic design of a TV set you buy.

Unless you have an ability to review the calcs and then "approve" it AND bear the liability, asking for calcs is in fact asking for liability.

There are places to ask for calcs, for certain things. I know structural engineering is one of them for certain type of projects where a peer review is a requirement and also for the record and sometimes insurance company requires some calcs.

PE stamps are the testimony to the fact that the design meets certain safety criteria applicable, but its only valid where the PE stamp is valid.

So without the knowledge of what was in the spec and what is in the RFP, it is not possible to make conclusions as to who has the right to what.

 

[JAE]

PE stamps are the testimony to the fact that the design meets certain safety criteria applicable, but its only valid where the PE stamp is valid.

Not really. In most US states the PE stamp only confirms two things:
1. You are a licensed engineer.
2. You designed, or had responsible charge of the design, of the items in the document you are signing.

My understanding (from many state engineering laws I've read) is that the stamp is not an explicit warranty or certification of safety or proper design. It only indicates that you have taken responsibility for that design.

The certification of code-compliance or safety is only implicit in the stamp....I'm probably splitting hairs here...sorry.

 

[EddyC]

I've seen so much rubber stamping by fellow engineers that I can't blame customers/reviewers for wanting to see calculations.

 

[Timelord]

msquared48,

I reread your post and I still don't get your point.

"If he wants your stamp, you need to see the supporting calculations."

The OP never said anything about stamping anything himself. He is trying to buy a already stamped set of plans and wants to see the supporting calcs. The OP doesn't need a PE and and nobody is asking for his stamp, he wants support for the vendors stamp on the vendor supplied drawings which may be a requirement of his customer. If I pay for stamped drawings, I don't expect to have to pay a second PE to repeat the calcs so I can have a copy to supply up the chain.

"He either needs to hire a PE as an employee to stamp his project, or, as previously suggested, you need to sign an agreement of non-disclosure."

"He" (assumed to refer to the vendor) already has a PE and is willing to supply stamped drawings, just not the supporting calcs. "You" (assumed to refer to the OP) has not said anything about refusing to sign a non-disclosure. He is just asking if refusing to supply the supporting calcs is normal business practice in the US. It is NOT in my experience (33 years as a PE).

Timelord

 

[MintJulep]

Is the bid already awarded?

If no, then he is non-responsive and is disqualified.

If yes, does the contract clearly enforce all of the bid spec requirements?

If yes, then he is in violation of the contract.

 

[Ron]

In my home state, the Structural Engineer of Record does not usually have to submit calculations with his drawings; however, other disciplines are required to submit calcs, such as HVAC and Civil. When the Engineer of Record delegates certain engineering functions (such as connection design, pieces/parts, etc.) the delegated engineer is required by state law to submit calculations with enough detail for the EOR to review the design for compliance with the specifications/prime design.

This seem like one of those delegated engineering issues and it is reasonable for the engineer to provide calcs to substantiate the design. After all, you must rely on the design and sometimes, unfortunately, some engineers will sign and seal anything as long as they don't have to prove it. Sad but true, as you all know.

 

[rbulsara]

JAE:

If someone fraudulently stamps a drawings, it is exactly that a fraud and act punishable by law. PE stamp/sealing does carry a degree of responsibility, the very reason licenses are in place. Misuse of them is criminal offense. If anyone has seen those, they need to report to the licensing board which is also expected as an ethical thing from PEs, and not complain here.