Certainly getting a lot of play.
Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
-
Congratulations waross on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Fuel Cells
- Thread starter unclesyd
- Start date
- Status
A lot of press, but no details. Their web site has specifications along with loads of half truths.
If anyone can tell me how a 100Kw unit can power 100 homes, let me know, If every home were median sized and had gas for heat and no AC, it might make it at High noon or midnight, but in the evening and morning, it's breakers would all pop.
They are claiming a 50% thermo efficency on natural gas, except thats LHV eficency, in the natural gas industry, gas is sold on an upper heating value and that must be the base from which you do your efficency calculations, that drops the efficency to 45%. When you compare their CO2 emmisions reduction, the calculated efficency drops to 35%. An ICE engine at a fixed load rate could be tuned to get that efficency on natural gas.
They don't say what they do with the odorant in the natural gas, but the sulphur has got to be a killer.
If anyone can tell me how a 100Kw unit can power 100 homes, let me know, If every home were median sized and had gas for heat and no AC, it might make it at High noon or midnight, but in the evening and morning, it's breakers would all pop.
They are claiming a 50% thermo efficency on natural gas, except thats LHV eficency, in the natural gas industry, gas is sold on an upper heating value and that must be the base from which you do your efficency calculations, that drops the efficency to 45%. When you compare their CO2 emmisions reduction, the calculated efficency drops to 35%. An ICE engine at a fixed load rate could be tuned to get that efficency on natural gas.
They don't say what they do with the odorant in the natural gas, but the sulphur has got to be a killer.
the data sheet
Technical Highlights
Inputs Fuels Natural Gas, Directed Biogas
Input fuel pressure 15 psig
Fuel required @ rated power 0.661 MMBtu/hr of natural gas
Water required (for startup only) 120 gallons municipal water
Outputs
Rated power output (AC) 100 kW
Electrical efficiency (LHV net AC) > 50%
Electrical connection 480V @ 60 Hz, 4-wire 3 phase
Physical
Weight 10 tons
Size 224" x 84" x 81"
Emissions
NOx < 0.07 lbs/MW-hr
SOx negligible
CO < 0.10 lbs/MW-hr
VOCs < 0.02 lbs/MW-hr
CO2 @ specified efficiency 773 lbs/MW-hr on natural gas,
carbon neutral on Directed Biogas Environment
Standard temperature range 0° to 40° C (extreme weather kit available)
Max altitude at rated power 6,000 ft. MSL
Humidity 20% - 95%
Seismic Vibration IBC 2003: Site Class D
Location Outdoor
Noise @ rated power < 70 DB @ 6 feet
Codes and Standards
Complies with Rule 21 interconnection standards
Exempt from CA Air District permitting; meets stringent CARB 2007 emissions standards
Product Listed by Underwriters Laboratories (UL) to the FC-1 standard
Additional Notes
Operates in a grid parallel configuration
Includes a secure website for you to showcase performance & environmental benefits
Remotely managed and monitored by Bloom Energy
Capable of emergency stop based on input from your facility
What are you guys powering in your "homes?" Marijuana farms? ;-)
My typical weighted usage is only about 7.5kW, which takes my monthly usage of 900kWh and stuffs it into 4 hrs a day. Admittedly, some people I know have managed to nearly double my usage, but not that many people can afford to pay $300/month in electricity.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
My typical weighted usage is only about 7.5kW, which takes my monthly usage of 900kWh and stuffs it into 4 hrs a day. Admittedly, some people I know have managed to nearly double my usage, but not that many people can afford to pay $300/month in electricity.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Google has set 4 of these units outside one of their buildings. The maufacturer says a single 1000 KW unit can run 100 homes, yeah right. If you put in big enough batteries or are grid tied. If you are grid tied, why would you want to pay for a second service system?
So there was nothing factually wrong with, "the maufacturer says a single 1000 KW unit can run 100 homes?"
That was not clear from your comment, since it followed a similar comment that implied that a typical US home draw, on average greater than 10kW.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
That was not clear from your comment, since it followed a similar comment that implied that a typical US home draw, on average greater than 10kW.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
- Thread starter
- #10
With a name like Bloom you are either very good at what you do or the meanest cat around.
What is impressive to me is how they kept the development secret.
Here is little more information on the genesis of Bloom Energy.
What is impressive to me is how they kept the development secret.
Here is little more information on the genesis of Bloom Energy.
IRstuff, the issue is that they manufatureer uses average power versus peek power of homes. Can you imagine buying one and connecting 100 homes to it, then at 6:00 pm when everyone comes home ane the setback AC thermostat comes on ane people cranks up their ovens to cook a steak and the load goes to 100000 watts?
The average investor (remember, the site is optimized to raise money) says cool and the buyers also believe this bunk, and the lawsuites are filed.... Isn't it the duty of a PE to speak up and warn of this type of..... misleading?
The average investor (remember, the site is optimized to raise money) says cool and the buyers also believe this bunk, and the lawsuites are filed.... Isn't it the duty of a PE to speak up and warn of this type of..... misleading?
I'm still not sure what the issue is. Their statement is factually correct, and is merely a point of reference. The fact of the matter is that no one builds power systems to supply peak loads for every possible house; that's why we have rolling brownouts during the summer.
As you so indicated, a system designed to handle 10x the average load will simply sit idling about 18 hrs day; not exactly a good return on investment.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
As you so indicated, a system designed to handle 10x the average load will simply sit idling about 18 hrs day; not exactly a good return on investment.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
- Thread starter
- #14
Another news blurb. Looks like Wednesday is coming out day.
I don't get it. There has been a very nice single home fuelcell system that runs on NG around for years. It is nearly silent and looks like a tall AC unit. It can even provide hot water. It's about a 6kW unit that charges a battery bank that allows 12kW loads to be supported.
The entire design is very sound and could be applied house by house unlike the Bloom scheme.
Keith Cress
kcress -
The entire design is very sound and could be applied house by house unlike the Bloom scheme.
Keith Cress
kcress -
IR, living in CA, US and having rolling brown outs might be the norm for you, but the rest of us don't want to live with rollowing brown outs.
Back to the issue, the Bloom is catering to the uneducated and getting them to believe their product is greener than green and that you can set one at a green commune and get all tingly because you are well, "green".
Google has applied for a FERC certificate sell power they will have as excess at night, it's the only way they can make the finances work, so, does that mean everyone that can affor a few Bloom Boxes should get a certificate? Talk about run away controls??? The only way to manage such a system would be smart grid, where every home owner would have to nominate it's useage every 15 minutes and see electric costs peak at $.50/ kw-hr at 6:00pm and drop to $.08/kw-hr at 3:00am.
Back to the issue, the Bloom is catering to the uneducated and getting them to believe their product is greener than green and that you can set one at a green commune and get all tingly because you are well, "green".
Google has applied for a FERC certificate sell power they will have as excess at night, it's the only way they can make the finances work, so, does that mean everyone that can affor a few Bloom Boxes should get a certificate? Talk about run away controls??? The only way to manage such a system would be smart grid, where every home owner would have to nominate it's useage every 15 minutes and see electric costs peak at $.50/ kw-hr at 6:00pm and drop to $.08/kw-hr at 3:00am.
If the system is running off biogas, then it is as green as can be while still using a hydrocarbon fuel, so what's the beef? It's definitely cleaner than burning coal or diesel, and its localized generation means that you don't have to pay for, or compensate for, the transmission grid losses.
As for the sell costs, that's a management problem, not a technology problem. The current pricing structure will get modified as more customers generate their own power. Eventually, there will simply be less "float" to make a profit from. Additionally, if more people crank up their natural gas usage, the operating margins will also get thinner. Note that as with standard electric generation, if there is no demand, cranking the generator simply wastes fuel. I expect that as the industry matures, every generator will have a throttle limit that does not allow the generator to pump energy into the grid if there is insufficient demand.
We can either built more power plants, nuclear or otherwise, or you can install a 10 kW system in your own home for $3K, if the pricing works out the way they hope. That would be about 1/20 of the cost of a typical solar cell installation for only about 6kW generation. You can use it all, or you can sell to the utility, assuming there's sufficient operating margin.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
As for the sell costs, that's a management problem, not a technology problem. The current pricing structure will get modified as more customers generate their own power. Eventually, there will simply be less "float" to make a profit from. Additionally, if more people crank up their natural gas usage, the operating margins will also get thinner. Note that as with standard electric generation, if there is no demand, cranking the generator simply wastes fuel. I expect that as the industry matures, every generator will have a throttle limit that does not allow the generator to pump energy into the grid if there is insufficient demand.
We can either built more power plants, nuclear or otherwise, or you can install a 10 kW system in your own home for $3K, if the pricing works out the way they hope. That would be about 1/20 of the cost of a typical solar cell installation for only about 6kW generation. You can use it all, or you can sell to the utility, assuming there's sufficient operating margin.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
In my area of California. the utility company sells both Electricity and natural gas.
If the demand for electricity goes down and the demand for gas goes up, what stops them from making a price adjustment that neutralizes any profit that you hope to make?
B.E.
If the demand for electricity goes down and the demand for gas goes up, what stops them from making a price adjustment that neutralizes any profit that you hope to make?
B.E.
well, I'd like to see it run off bigas, I'd like to see what ethane and ethylene does to it. I can't wait to see how they handle the Sulphur in distribution gas (mercaptains).
You should be what landfill biogas does to a compressor.
Just burning biogas is difficult enough. now put it in a fuel cell.
I'll wait for the tests on biogas before I comment any further.
If I put in 10 - 1 MW generagtors, I'll have a 20 to 1 turndown ratio. Very high thermo efficency say 6800 BTU/HP-hr.
You should be what landfill biogas does to a compressor.
Just burning biogas is difficult enough. now put it in a fuel cell.
I'll wait for the tests on biogas before I comment any further.
If I put in 10 - 1 MW generagtors, I'll have a 20 to 1 turndown ratio. Very high thermo efficency say 6800 BTU/HP-hr.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question