Game plan to start my own little business out of college 12

[michaelwoodcoc]

Tell me about some small engineering jobs you can do and average pay

I'm considering opening up my own practice when I graduate. I'm not chasing the money, I want the satisfaction of doing things my own way, for the better. (More on that after my questions though) I've looked up all the requirements and I should have no problem with my degree.

Questions:

How much engineering work is there in a local market? How much entry level work?

Do houses all need a mechanical engineer to sign off on them (Georgia)?

I know some states require calculations for the ideal AC unit size.

Also, there's ductwork and such that would need to be engineered for any custom house design. I'm aware that many house plans just have this stuff engineered once, so any house built from plans has minimal engineering involved.

Is it easy to bid on state government work? I already see the federal requirements need a dun & Bradstreet number, it'd take a while to get that

do larger companies ever sub out work? I live right near some aerospace companies

My background:

I have automotive experience, making custom parts, wiring, custom ECU's, etc.

my most relevant experience is HVAC. I have lots of HVAC experience from working on design bids, etc.

CAD, lots of CAD experience. 3d scanning and reverse engineering experience

Machining, including CNC, setting up my own machines/linux cnc

My inspiration

HVAC: I see so many things done just for initial cost savings. Also I see so many things where people just didn't use their heads, and so much $$ could have been saved with just a little more experience or thinking.

Automotive: Honestly I'm not sure where this field is going. I can do custom ECU's, design parts, all that stuff, and do a good job, but the performance market is shrinking a little since the fast and furious days have fizzled. Now it's mostly about stance.

I saw a manufacturing plant of dental tools. Totally automated proccess. Making the robots that moved the bits around would be easy for me. They told me they don't often need that stuff done, but when they do, the contracts are big money, and it's hard for them to find someone who can do it. My control experience, CAD experience, and everything else makes this something I really understand.

I think I can do it on my own. I really believe in that. I know it'll be very slow to grow. I may start after I graduate with the bachelors and go for my masters in something.

 

[weldstan]

When I worked in CA, a Mechanical PE was required to sign all documents on HVAC equipment. But that was long ago.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

The funny thing is the GA form seems very simple. No mention of a ncees exam, or another exam, which seems like it would be required. However, it says it's governed by some other law or authority which I can't find easy requirements for. I understand most states require 4 years of experience. I'm not so sure where to start.

EDIT: found With exception of a locally prepared examination on hydrology and the legal aspects of land surveying in Georgia, all examinations will be in accordance with the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES).
GA R&R » Department 180 » Chapter 180-2

There is no mention of a minimum years of experience required, however, there are listed requirements for the type of experience, it seems mostly subjective stuff.

 

[wroggent]

http://sos.ga.gov/plb/acrobat/Laws/09_Professional_Engineers_and_Land_Surveyors.pdf

page 13

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

^Ok thanks for that. In that case, I'll try and get a part time job at a firm after I graduate as an undergrad and try and graduate with my masters debt free. There seems, although I may be mistaken, not to be a requirement that those years of experience were full time.

 

[IRstuff]

not to be a requirement that those years of experience were full time.

I think you are barking up a non-existent tree here; it has to be at least close to full-time, otherwise, you could possibly do 2 hrs of engineering in 4 yrs, one at the start and one at the end, and claim 4 yrs of experience. Not only would that be ludicrous, but you'd be unlikely to get any legitimate PE to sign off on your "experience."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[Jboggs]

Ah, the confidence of youth! You'll do well, eventually. But until then you will need more real world experience, and a steady income. I've been in and around the engineering consulting business for several decades. I've worked in one man operations, small local firms, and large multi-national conglomerates. One thing I can tell you for sure - if the only demonstrable thing you have to offer a potential client is just a degree, you don't have much. In my humble opinion, your real education STARTS AFTER you graduate. As you work your way through several jobs in diverse fields, look at each one as just another class in the school of reality. You will gain knowledge, and skills, and judgment in each one. You will learn how to approach different situations. You will learn where the land mines are.

You will also learn what you really want to do, and what you don't want to do. For example, designing HVAC systems and designing parts for CNC manufacturing are two VERY different skill sets. I don't know anybody that can do both at expert level. I'm a mechanical engineer, but I couldn't calculate the heat load on a building if I had to.

In short, your personal experiences will answer all your questions above. And personal experience is by far the best teacher.

At some point you will have enough real world experience that you could actually make regular house payments by offering your own personal abilities on the open market. Only then should you seriously consider making the jump.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

I didn't know you really needed an engineer to size AC units. It isn't at all tied to public safety.

I would be weary of anything that requires so little experience that a fresh graduate could handle it themselves. Anything that has no barrier to entry will pay terribly for the time and effort. There will be too much competition.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

 

[CWB1]

I didn't know you really needed an engineer to size AC units. It isn't at all tied to public safety.

Designing a system for your own private industrial facility, no. Soliciting work for an apartment building, yes. Safety is a fairly minor concern in the grand scheme of HVAC work, however you're still dealing with fans and hot/cold components which need appropriate shielding. You're also dealing with freon which has potential to kill those exposed to it in confined spaces, nvm the federal regulations safeguarding its escape into the atmosphere. In reality, the issue is more due to the fact that a properly designed system has a ton of engineering and lab development behind it, so its rather tough to consider it non-engineering as its not something a tradesman can do on their own.

OP, I'm sure in your mind you know the points listed in your background. Unfortunately the reality you're going to find is that without a decade or two's experience in a particular engineering niche under proficient mentorship, your work is simply going to be crude as hell. ~30% of the knowledge for any given design role is taught in college, most of it comes from the experience of having an experienced group of mentors telling you why things work and why they don't. Even small tasks like running a CAD system need this bc there's a ton of opportunity for bad habits to slow down complex files, and properly structuring and organizing files is no trivial task. The first two things taught in a good engineering program are the dangers of engineers stepping outside their experience based on their belief of having knowledge (basic engineering ethics), and that you have to work dam hard at seemingly small tasks to be proficient. Go work for a large company, get some experience, and in a decade or two build a business on experience, not fraud. In the meantime, allot yourself 50-60 hrs/wk for at least the first year for work and the continual education necessary to learn your first role.

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." -Boorstin

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

Thanks for all the tips guys! I think I'll take the good advice.

OP, I'm sure in your mind you know the points listed in your background. Unfortunately the reality you're going to find is that without a decade or two's experience in a particular engineering niche under proficient mentorship, your work is simply going to be crude as hell. ~30% of the knowledge for any given design role is taught in college, most of it comes from the experience of having an experienced group of mentors telling you why things work and why they don't. Even small tasks like running a CAD system need this bc there's a ton of opportunity for bad habits to slow down complex files, and properly structuring and organizing files is no trivial task. The first two things taught in a good engineering program are the dangers of engineers stepping outside their experience based on their belief of having knowledge (basic engineering ethics), and that you have to work dam hard at seemingly small tasks to be proficient. Go work for a large company, get some experience, and in a decade or two build a business on experience, not fraud.

There's a few interesting points here, that are actually quite applicable to most situations, but go against my experience. For example: My teacher for CAD has a degree. A student in class will have a problem on a project and ask him for help. He was trying things for around 8 minutes when I went over and just said "I overheard a little and this seems interesting", I had it fixed in 10 seconds.

I've seen in this case, I can do a better job than the expert.

In another case, I was working on a bid for a data center job at a hospital. A design, quote, finalize bid kindof thing. The chiller was many stories up on the hospital roof. The engineer, who mind you was certified, was considering relative factors, and protecting the data centers was one of them. She was designing the system with welded steel pipes in an earthquake prone zone. She ran the idea by us, asking how much it would cost to build a trough under the pipe to protect from leaks. I don't think the water pressure from the pump and many stories up would fall gently into a trough, and that's not considering the volume.

This hospital had two data centers. If one went bad, they had to have a backup. There was yet another backup off site. Anyways. In this other data center the hospital had, you could see the engineering solutions someone else had come up with, which this engineer on the job we were bidding had obviously not taken the time or effort to look into. Aquatherm was in use, certainly a clever idea concerning pipe breakage concerns, and the piping was routed in such a way as the piping in the actual room was minimal, and below the floor, vs. above the ceiling. Genius.

I just think it's little common sense things like that, and exactly that that make someone who cares about doing a good job, and takes the time to use their eyes and brain better than someone who has been doing it one way for 17 years, and doesn't want to change their ways (always steel pipe above drop ceilings). You could say that's almost the real fraud. To get a degree, a license, sit down to do work with that degree and license, and yet do it like a chimpanzee. There's no obvious reason for it. It undoubtedly costs more, and has more risk this way, and yet, your customer sees your qualifications and thinks they're getting a quality job. Now that I see all the requirements I'm curious how she got someone to sign off on her experience.

Anyways. Tha's kindof besides the point. We don't need more engineers like that around, and you guys have convinced me it's better to get a lot of practical experience. I'm going to follow this advice, thanks!

 

[Ron]

In Georgia, you will be required to be licensed as a Professional Engineer to offer services to the public. You can't do that straight out of college. If you get a master's degree, it will count for 1 year of your full time experience, otherwise you will need 4 years of relevant experience to take the PE exam. Georgia uses the national model (NCEES), so their requirements are not significantly different from other states.

 

[oldestguy]

Michael:..If you have any reservations about heeding the advice given here, click on the names of those posting comments. Note those with the most valuable advice are old timers who have been through it all. Don't dismiss it.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

You guys are right. I think what I'll try and do is get my foot in the door part time somewhere, meanwhile try and do some kindof work on my own that perhaps does not require a license. Designing some factory equipment at a dental tool manufacturing facility was one, but they don't need things very often I was told. It was all interesting stuff, and pretty basic. It involved lots of different things, micro controllers, CNC, mechanical design of arms to transport parts, all kinds of stuff to get from start to finish. They told me they can hardly find anybody that can do that kindof stuff, and it pays well when they do.

I presume it's easier, although less fruitful, to do these kinds of small jobs, if you can find them. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[271828]

Some have mentioned the PE license. There's a world of paperwork and expenses other than that. Dealing with NCEES, PE boards in several states, and the Secretary of State in several states is nearly a full time job for a start-up and the costs are pretty high. I'd recommend saving a pretty large chunk of dough before trying to go solo.

 

[weldstan]

You intend to design equipment for others. Do understand the importance of liability insurance and its costs.

 

[CWB1]

I just think it's little common sense things like that, and exactly that that make someone who cares about doing a good job, and takes the time to use their eyes and brain better than someone who has been doing it one way for 17 years, and doesn't want to change their ways (always steel pipe above drop ceilings). You could say that's almost the real fraud. To get a degree, a license, sit down to do work with that degree and license, and yet do it like a chimpanzee. There's no obvious reason for it. It undoubtedly costs more, and has more risk this way, and yet, your customer sees your qualifications and thinks they're getting a quality job. Now that I see all the requirements I'm curious how she got someone to sign off on her experience.

Engineering is like any other job or profession, there are folks that are good at their jobs and those that are terrible. Work hard under competent mentorship and you will become a good engineer. Don't strive to only be better than the unethically incompetent. And yes, you are correct in that selling services in an area outside of one's competence (education AND experience) is unethical (fraudulent) tho many here will argue me on my use of the "AND."

As to plant automation design, there are tons of companies specializing in it. Many are really good, many are really bad. IMHO the defining aspect between the two is competent engineering staff - the good companies have experienced engineers and the bad ones have folks who learned to program Fanuc bots at the local community college in six weeks.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

Thanks for the tips guys! After considering the advice, I've kindof changed my plan to be mostly engineering that does not require a license. I think I'd also try and get a part time job somewhere to learn more. A friend of mine found some part time structural engineering. Not sure how common part time jobs are in mech/elec fields.

You intend to design equipment for others. Do understand the importance of liability insurance and its costs.

Say I design stuff like I saw int he factory I visited. Just moving small parts from one place to the other. It was fascinating. I can't imagine there being human life at stake. I'm just not sure in this case how much liability there would be. I imagine designing stuff for say, a foundry, a water dam, or chemical plants, could have a huge liability because human lives are at stake. They had excellent quality control and I imagine if somehow, anything I designed affected production it'd be caught before the batch left the factory.

CWB1, the more I consider what you're saying, the more I know it's practical wisdom, and it's true. Here's where you're right, but I would like my career to be different:

Work hard under competent mentorship and you will become a good engineer.

I've learned the best people are self taught. This is impractical or impossible in many fields today, and you atleast need to use education and experience as a "stepping stone". Imagine the ethical and practical problems of being a self taught doctor, for example. To be a generator of knowledge you have to be capable of learning on your own, for yourself. To be good, you can just learn everything that has already been discovered and apply it practically.

I don't really want to be the guy who learns for years and years under others, I kindof like the excitement of learning for myself. It's always disappointing, however, to come up with what you think is a new idea, and to discover it's already been patented or thought of before.

Anyways, now knowing some of my personality, and shifted goals, what are some things I could do so that every day is a new challenge, where I learn for myself what works and doesn't? Even if I don't generate knowledge for others, something where I generate knowledge for myself.

I'm thinking it has to be something with low liability for one.

Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[IRstuff]

I'm just not sure in this case how much liability there would be.

Say your equipment introduced a latent defect or contaminated the product somehow; who do you think will bear a chunk of the warranty costs?

I've learned the best people are self taught.

That may be your experience, but those are extremely rare, and that doesn't mean that being self-taught will make you the best. Correlation does not mean causation; and those that are the best might have been the best, regardless of their education. Consider that the members of Mensa have IQs above 132 and 96% of them had at least some college; that does not mean that going to college will get you into Mensa.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[GregLocock]

Research crush deaths in factories and you might need to rethink your attitude to liability around parts handling robots.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[BrianPetersen]

I'm battling a material-handling-robot situation right now in which someone who thought they knew what they were doing, didn't.

Hitting the E-stop on the teach pendant stopped that robot but didn't stop anything else, including the other robot. That was the first indication. It proved to be just the tip of the iceberg.