GPA Vs. Experiance 5

[Gymmeh]

We all know that better grades lead to better jobs.

I am one of those that has managed to, I feel, excel at jobs, however I am one of those less then 3.0/4.0 people.

Now with two internships and a year and 5 months of work experience I have set out to get into a more comfortable job position.

So I had, what I thought were two excellent interviews for a company for a design engineer position which was presented as a position which calculations were rare and basically design falls under “fair judgment” on industrial equipment, and working with drafters to bring the design together for the Project engineer. They had me do a couple aptitude tests which I breezed through, one question I even answer just looking at the paper while it was in the interviewer’s hand.

My current position requires calculations or a reference to back up anything I do -so people don't get hurt-, inspections, and almost total authority over designs.
Basically the new job seems one step back from the math intense/extreme details, and I thought this new job was a done deal!

Today I got an email saying they had some concern about my GPA (which is a 2.4/4.0), which was just quickly asked during the interview and never brought up again.

I laughed when I read it! you have got to be kidding me?

I wrote up a Email saying, What course work do you consider relevant to this position? I will gladly send you my transcript showing A and B in all classes which seam relevant to this position.

I also wrote about getting B's in two grad level engineering classes, and the fact that I was involved in Rugby, multiple intramural sports, battle bot team, An engineering fraternity, a job, and I also applied for a Patent, etc. (e.i. my grades are not low because of partying!)

I didn’t email them because I thought it best to run this by the Best Qualified judges of all things engineering... the Eng-tips Crowd.

I have to assume they interviewed someone with an amazing GPA. How do I tell them that the job presented is not worthy of a High GPA person, and my experience should trump my GPA?

Should I ask if I could stop in and talk to them about my GPA, and that it does not reflect my potential?

Just destroyed my weekend...

Thanks & have a good weekend

 

[ash9144]

I would reply to them to the effect that you were very active (with non party activity)and that you would appreciate the chance to speak them regarding their concerns over gpa.

Also take the chance to emphasize your work experience and how that makes you a great candidate for their position.

I've been in industry for 17 yrs and have changed companies 3 times and interviewed multiple times for those changes. Some managers will pick out certain aspects to focus in on and thats just their mind set. Also you should think about what they say it could be an indicator of a place you might not want to go.

 

[TheTick]

I think you answered well, putting the best positive spin on a less than flattering GPA. 2.4 is a bit on the low side, especially in this era of grade inflation.

The bottom line is you just never know exactly what trips an employer's trigger. You have no control over that. Perhaps they're looking for someone w/ more rounded education (i.e. better grades in writing & English). Maybe they've been burned before by low GPA candidates. There's no way to tell. It's only one employer, so I wouldn't worry about this being a trend.

Try to stay in your first job 3 years if you can. Less does not look good on a resume.

 

[stanweld]

GPA's are definitely taken into account for young engineers. From your post, it does not appear that they have flat out rejected your application. I would advise a response to their email indictating your higher grades in applicable subjects and improvements in GPA during the course of study.

With the exception of my initial job out of College, I have not provided my GPA on my resume. When asked, I emphasised grades in my Engineering discipline.

Good luck.

 

[jpankask]

Even two internships and 1.5 years of experience is not very much to go on. You have probably only had one documented performance evaluation, if that. So a lot of what the company has to go on is GPA. In a few more years, GPA will be a moot point. I assume this position is basically entry level. Don't take it too much to heart, it sounds like you have drafted a pretty good reply, putting a positive spin on your GPA. Definitely do not say anything about the position not requiring a high GPA!

Your offer to send your transcript is good, I'm a little surprised they hadn't requested it already. They must have an interest in you, or they wouldn't even give you a chance to explain the low GPA. Calculate your "engineering" or "technical" GPA, which would comprise all of your classes from the college of engineering and any other technical type classes you might have taken. Assuming this is 3.0 or better, you can prove that you have the technical ability but maybe had a hard time in some of the classes that maybe were not so interesting or important to you (don't state it as that, though). Make sure the response you actually send them is well drafted and error free, do NOT use any internet/text lingo such as U R (you are), etc. How your response is received will probably make the difference between the company dumping your resume or considering your explanation and giving you a chance.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Sorry - just had to say this - learn how to spell "experience"

I have always hired people who somehow paid their way through college - either by jobs or athletic scholarships.

Always found these people to be more out going and hard working. Does this apply to you.... It did to me personally. I always worked at least 20 hours per week to pay my way - or most of it....

Good Luck

 

[abusementpark]

"I laughed when I read it! you have got to be kidding me?"

Seriously, you never thought an engineering firm would be apprehensive about hiring someone with a 2.4??

 

[bvanhiel]

Sorry - just had to say this - learn how to spell "experience"

... and fix the grammar/spelling errors in the first couple of sentences.

Have someone proof your email before you send it.

It sounds like nitpicking, but when there is little real evidence to judge you on, then people will use what they have in front of them. That's why we wear suits to an interview and make sure to put our best foot forward. That's also why you're getting flack about your GPA. It makes up a considerable percentage of what they know about you.

-b

 

[TheTick]

Others are more directly saying something I only hinted at: work on your writing. Bad spelling and poor grammar leave poor impressions. If any of this bad writing and grammar spills onto your resume, you will have trouble.

 

[Gymmeh]

Yeah when I wrote on this forum I was not paying perfect attention to grammar, when I write emails to potential employers I normally proof read them a number of times.

I did not really think about it in terms of, the percentage of what they know about me is small enough that GPA is really important.

abusementpark, yes i understand 2.4 is low, I will elaborate little more. After telling them about the amount of stress and deflection analysis it do at my current job, I asked them what kind of analysis do they do for their design, stress/deflection/moment? They replied "we dont do much analysis but when we do we use an FEA program." Then I asked if my position would be involved in analysis and they said no. So based in this I assumed they would not care about GPA since extensive math would not be necessary.
So yes given the situation I didn't think GPA would matter.

Mike, I worked ever semester and break except when I was doing Study Abroad.

I will be send them the email today.

 

[Atomic25]

To be honest, I don't recommend telling them you received bad grades because you were in rugby, working, or in intramural sports. This indicates you cant manage your time effectively and/or don't have priorities straight. I sure wouldn't want one of my guys not getting his project done because of softball practice.

 

[Zogzog]

Details matter my young padawan, not just in emails to employers, always. 1 mistake can cause a power systems, or bridge, or building, or whatever mechanicial engineers work on -)) fail. Things you may not think matter in this stage in your carreer do, in fact matter.

 

[KENAT]

Gymmeh,

From what I've seen the US more so than the UK is hung up on academic grades/GPA.

Now I didn't do that well academically (in my case in part due to partying:-(, partly sport, in part due to then undiagnosed dyslexia and in at least in part 'cause I just aint that smart) so maybe some of this is my own slanted view point but I'll share it anyway.

I'm not saying getting a good GPA isn't important as it demonstrates the ability to learn (and all that entails) and a basic understanding/schooling in relevant areas. However, it's only part of the story.

We have a fairly large intern program at our site, between 15-20 interns every 6 months (some stay a year) from Europe. The guy that heads up the intern program tends to pick primarily by GPA. My boss on the other hand, while still in my opinion overly concerned with GPA, will look at other things like extra curricular activities, relevant year out/previous internships etc. He always tries to do phone interviews but occasionally this doesn't work out and/or sometimes pickings are slim so the internship coordinator ends up picking interns for us.

We have had a lot of trouble with some of the high GPA candidates. They don't tend to work as hard, tend to be a bit arrogant, have a sense of entitlement, object to doing anything they perceive a menial or below them... On the other hand the best intern in my opinion, certainly the most productive, had the lowest GPA.

The fact is that many managers/recruiters in the States won't normally take less than a certain GPA, no matter how well suited the applicant may otherwise be. Just because you wont even be applying much of what was covered by the course you have the GPA in doesn't change this, they want a 3.0 or whatever regardless. They may even prefer a 3.0 in a less directly relevant degree than a 2.5 or whatever in a directly applicable one.

So you may just have to face the fact that no matter why you have the lower GPA, many recruiters wont car and will rule you out almost immediately.

Contacting them in this case is appropriate. I'd focus more on reminding them of relevant experience and pointing out better grades in directly relevant subjects and worry less about making excuses. Certainly say you'd be willing to discuss your GPA in more detail but at the first contact I wouldn't have your excuse list there for them to pick apart.



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[SomptingGuy]

Woooo KENAT, I have some salt & vinegar for that shoulder of yours ;-)

Most jobs here in Blighty just ask for a Desmond or better, once you've been through the interview stage. But you konw that of course.

So, in a vague attempt to answer the OP, (in the UK) experience trumps grades, so long as the grades are Desmond+ and the Uni was among the right ones.

- Steve

 

[Gymmeh]

Zogzog, I like the use of you padawan. Yes completely understand attention to detail, however I didn’t totally understand/think of that when I was in Uni. . Now I pay attention to some details almost to the point of anxiety attacks, cuz I know enough to know the consequences of mistakes. (mechanical engineers sometimes work on cranes ;-) ) . For awhile I have been trying really hard to get into a position with less responsibility, which I am finding more difficult than I thought. Add to that, getting beat up over my gpa is just annoying (this is almost a year old but gives a little background: thread731-196622)

After Re-reading that thread, i noticed I said, “Obviously [my bosses] leniency may come to an end…” Which it has, and further drives my desire to change jobs.

KENAT: I normally can defend myself if given a chance, the problem is they email me late Friday that my gpa was low and they were going to make a decision Friday, and contact me today (Monday).

The problem is I an often set in this position with no chance to show that my grades relevant to the job are A and B's, and that I was involved in activities with improve teamwork and social skills. Its like getting jumped by 5 guys, you have not chance...

 

[KENAT]

Sompting, probably not enough salt or vinegar. (By the way, salt and vinegar is awesome on most English Chips, however I have yet to find a fry in America, even the steak ones, that can take the vinegar without becoming a soggy, sour mess.)

Got my Desmond and from a proper school so like you say, most people don't care. BAE systems, DERA/Qinetiq & DESO, were the only ones that even asked about it as I recal.

Gymmeh, don't worry a lot of the time your resume is likely to get sent to the round filing cabinet due to your GPA before you ever get a chance to discuss it with them.

On your Resume you could give what I think is a "Technical GPA" or something. Basically give your GPA for just technical subjects as well as your overall - if this helps you. For me this would be of no help as all my classes were technical except the combined law/managment/accountancy course (in which I got one of my best grades!).

I wish you the best of luck but low GPA in the States seems like a real hurdle. Once you have a few more years under your belt it may be less of an issue but may make those first few years difficult.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[IRstuff]

GPAs are funny, and different companies treat them differently. I had a 3.2, and was turned down for an interview at Bell Labs, and apparently, they won't even bother to campus interview anyone with less than a 3.6. That's enough to give anyone an inferiority complex.

I would say that if it's coming down to your GPA, then you didn't "wow" them enough. Usually, if an applicant is impressive, we'll tend to overlook factors like GPAs, since they're only gross indicators in any case. The interviews themselves usually outweigh the static factors, unless the interviews were only so-so.

So, I would recommend doing more interviewing practice. Provide reasoned answers, but don't take too long at it. Be enthusiastic and project a go-get'em attitude. It's proposal time ;-)

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Gymmeh]

Well, I have gotten to the point where I might stick with Tick's advice and just wait till i get to the 3yr mark and then try to move.

 

[MechEng2005]

I also had less than 3.0/4.0 GPA. I do think it has been something of a set back, though I think it is mostly that my resume gets "filed" (trashed) before the actual hiring manager gets to look at it. I am assuming here, and haven't actually been told that the GPA is the reason I didn't get the interview though.

One item to consider would be to compare your GPA with the average of the school, if it is helpful. My GPA was almost exactly average for BSME's where I went to college, but is low in comparison with graduates from other schools.

Also, I think it is a good sign that the company contacted you instead of just rejecting you based on the GPA. Apparently you made a good impression and with a well-reasoned, intelligent response I think you have a good potential to get the position. My only suggestion beyond what has already been stated is be sure to explain your GPA, and do not make excuses. This can be a fine line, with subtle differences in wording the only difference.

Best of luck to you!
- MechEng2005

 

[Helicopterjunky]

Gymmeh,

I would not worry about the grades. Let's see wasn't it Thomas Edison and Winston Churchill who were never supposed to amount to anything. Maybe in the interest of getting another job you are settling on a company you will not be happy with. If you have an expectation of a certain level of detail you are comfortable with now, you may feel less than professional making decisions based on gut feel at the new place. The grades do not make a good engineer. Engineering is like a bridge between the pure sciences or technology and the industrial trades. A good engineer is able to communicate with the Research Scientist or the Machinist. As far as grade inflation at many schools goes, it is called cheating! Some who are breezing through at major universities are not doing it honestly. I would rather hire an engineer who worked through school or one with good communication skills and integrity rather than a super grade point average. Best wishes.