Graduate Civil Engineering dealing with Difficult Draftsman 27

[ukbridge]

I'm a graduate structural/bridge engineer learning the ins and outs of the UK construction industry as I go along. I wasn't sure if it is obvious, but I find it difficult dealing with draftsman, particularly the senior ones. I think by looking at the focus on my posts here, anybody could tell I'm a very technical guy. In this post I do not mean to generalise all draftsman like this.

Some days I can find it exhausting looking after particular senior draftsman who often try to dictate the way a particular drawing is going, and certain details either myself or senior engineer has suggested. I absolutely understand they have far more experience than myself, and will often know "what seems about right". There are many instances where a draftsman will suggest something, and my senior engineer is out of the office where I am unable to give a valid explanation as to why his/her solution is not valid. This typically applies to smaller non-structural things like manhole chambers, ducts and the like, which probably require a good few years more experience on my part. There are times where I feel unrespected by certain draftsman, maybe I do not deserve this respect yet but I find it difficult to challenge them on the basis that they have many years more experience than I.

Has anyone ever felt/feeling like this? Is there anything I can try to improve the situation? Is it a problem of being more assertive, or is it just part and parcel of the early days? Do I need to change my attitude etc. Even if I were to be assertive, I would likely get played back at and don't want to look like a stand-offish office a*hole. Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[MintJulep]

I am unable to give a valid explanation as to why his/her solution is not valid.

From reading that sentence it appears that your default is that anything suggested by a mere draftsman is automatically invalid.

That is very possibly part of the problem right there.

 

[GregLocock]

There can be a certain amount of game-playing when the great unwashed come up against the fine upstanding products of our universities who are keen to exercise their razor sharp minds. If you can't explain why their design is wrong then I'm not surprised you have difficulty getting them to do it your way. I have had a few drafties I couldn't stand working with, but by and large they have been amenable fellows with a great deal of experience that is worth listening to.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[zdas04]

Let me tell you a seemingly unrelated anecdote and then explain why it is not unrelated.

I went to a processing plant once to try to understand their maintenance needs. I took a REALLY green ChemEng with me. At the start of the meeting this kid hung on every work the plant manager said. Wrote most of it down in his notebook word for word. At the first break the kid sidled up to the manager and asked him where he went to school. The plant manager said "Casper [Wyoming] High School, but I didn't finish". The kid felt like he had been duped. After that point he was rude and nasty to the manager and would not let him finish a sentence. At the next break I sent the kid to sit in the car for the rest of the day. That evening I sent him back to the office where he was subsequently fired.

The point of sharing that story is that these senior draftsmen may not have your Sterling education, and they may have never even heard of a LaPlace Transform, but they know stuff. They are proud of the stuff they know and would be happy to share their experience with someone willing to listen. NO ONE will think less of an engineer who cultivates that knowledge. What I've done in similar circumstances (assuming your need to be the smartest person in the room has not destroyed any chance of a relationship) is:
[ul]
[li]TALK to them. Buy them a cup of coffee. Take them out for a beer after work. For gods sake learn all their names.[/li]
[li]In an informal setting ask something like "I've never seen manways [or whatever] configured the way you did on the Smith job, where did you come up with that?" And then listen to the answer. Ask questions that indicate you want to know the answer not that you are testing them.[/li]
[li]Most importantly, don't pretend to know more than you do know. If they ask you about something the boss put on the drawing that you are not familiar with, say "I'm not sure why he put that there, what is your issue with it?" Listen to the answer, if there is a code issue with the way they want to do it say "wouldn't that be a problem with the code on ...?" If there isn't a code issue then tell them you'll take it to the boss now that you understand the issues.[/li]
[/ul]
I've done all of those things and often found that the experienced guy has picked up some stuff that I hadn't and that blending practical experience with theory always ends up with a better answer than either by themselves. I've also made some of the best friends of my life that way. Many of them regularly bring ideas to me that other engineers have shot down to get me to support them. Sometimes I do, other times I'm able to explain the problem guy-to-guy without the engineer-to-slug attitude.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[ukbridge]

MintJulep,
I missed out a part of that sentence, where a senior engineer might get me to sketch out something they've proposed and I'd get it drafted up. The main difficulty is where he/she is on site, and I have to sort out a drawing. I do listen to draftsman and have a huge amount of respect for them, but find it tough defending details where different engineers may have different solutions.

For example, take GRP formwork vs Omnia planks during initial design. I'd suggest one over the other, and end up having a conversation about various advantages and disadvantages of each.

 

[MikeHalloran]

>> Is it a problem of being more assertive<<

NO.

You need to shut up and listen.
... especially to old farts who have been working since before you existed.


You also need to learn softer phrasing than 'not valid'. It's a little harsh and does not admit any possibility of there being any merit at all to someone else's viewpoint.


Those drafters are not your serfs. They are your partners in producing commercially significant graphical documents that are complete and accurate and easy to understand and, especially, difficult to misunderstand.

That last is not an easy skill to acquire, and chances are that you don't yet know squat about it. Whether you like the drafters personally or not, you need to afford them a lot more respect than seems apparent from the small sample you have provided here.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[JedClampett]

Let's see:
New guy; Thinks he's all that.
Crusty Drafters; Seen it all, including a bunch of hot new engineers every hiring season.
Mix together in close quarters.
I've had this done to me and counseled younger engineers when it was their turn. This is how they test you. If you keep your sense of humor, show them some respect, you'll do fine. If you fight them every turn, belittle them, and complain, well they've seen that, too.
Sometimes you're right and sometimes they're right. These people can help you or make you look bad. Make your choices and take your chances.

 

[mtu1972]

I've worked with a lot of great Drafter/Designer's over my career and learned a lot from many of them, especially early in my career. But there are plenty that think they know more than any engineer. Even in my last job, where I started with 33 years of diversified experience on my resume, there were several Drafter's with far less experience that totally disregarded any of my ideas. This was primarily because their ego's had been pumped up by the company's marketing data that touted how much experience their average employee had.

My problem was they had one year of experience 16 times, while I had 33 years of varied experience from commercial, residential, institutional, light industrial, and heavy industrial (manufacturing, mining and mineral processing, and pulp and paper). This companies focus was on pulp and paper, and at the time I started their I also had 17 years in that particular industry; so I was totally in my element.

Another problem here (WI, USA) is that we have a 2-year technical school system that really instills confidence into their technical school grads. They had a steel and a concrete class - so they know everything.

I remember starting work with my BSCE and being terrified that engineering school had taught me a lot, but also taught me how much I did not know yet. I used my first paycheck to buy a book about Building Construction so I could better grasp terminology and interaction methods that had never been discussed in the separate design classes that I had taken.

So yes, you can learn from some of the many of Drafters with more experience. But an equal number are just arrogant A-holes that will never give you any respect.

gjc

 

[racookpe1978]

You could write the same thing about every Army first lieutenant and Army sergeant since Caeser and Alexander the Great, or every navy ensign just graduated learning from every Navy chief since Peter was a fisherman.

But ...

They have the experience (as one writer put it elegantly up above) of "doing the same thing (in only one small part) of the real world for 15 years", while you have the "classroom experience" of learning from many thousand other people doing different things theoretically and practically worldwide. Which is more valuable? Both. Which is more important? Both.

YOU have to blend the two together (his experience with what should be your knowledge) to get the best solution. But YOU have accepted the responsibility of deciding the final solution - under your boss's fiscal and corporate responsibility. THEY have decided to remain at their position and have decided to decline the opportunity to claim that responsibility for the decision.

But your acceptance of a position - and the higher pay that normally comes from that responsibility - where you have the responsibility for the decision does NOT make you always correct. It just makes you always responsible. you have made great strides by recognizing your discomfort, your unease at contradicting or disagreeing with a statement/recommendation/action by somebody older than you.

"More experience" is sometimes also be "more experience in making the wrong decision." Or making a poor decision because of corporate history (or past projects) where that hard-earned experience is no longer applicable to the current project or future projects. The government (and military and government regulators in every department) in particular, is very fond of legislating elaborate "rules" and quoting specification based on old laws and old projects that restrict future projects and designs. Despite changes in the real world.

 

[ztengguy]

Drafters are great for drafting. If you want something changed and its against the 'standards of the company' i get the push back. If you need it changed because of engineering, do it yourself if they wont.

 

[TheTick]

echoing mtu1972's sentiments...

In the MCAD world, there are lots of drafter/designers who gained their positions with 0 to 2 years post-high school training and a fair amount of raw intelligence and/or computer savvy. As they age, many of them get very territorial over their positions. Many also have a resentment of high-falutin' book-learnin'.

Folks love a good can't-learn-that-in-school folk tale. Validates the masses, it does. There's a few good ones, and a few true ones. Good for a chuckle in the break room.

But, for every one of those, I go through ten things-you-DIDN'T-learn-in-school-but-shoulda episodes. These don't get remembered, repeated, or become legends.

I have deep respect for skilled tradesmen. I have learned much from many, and am grateful for what they have taught me. I have no respect for sclerotic trolls defending their shrinking patch of browning turf.

 

[Jboggs]

ukbridge: Take it from an old fart that started out exactly where you are right now. The best thing you could do for yourself right now is to realize that now that "school" is behind you your REAL education can begin. That's right - BEGIN.

The poorest performing young engineers are always the ones that think they know a lot more than they really do. NEVER get out of the attitude of looking at every day as another learning opportunity.

There is a VERY BIG difference in this phase of your education from those previous: the sources of your knowledge now are all people that are actually doing it, not talking about it. I got my M.E. degree 35 years ago and I have worked with a lot of folks. If you were to ask me who was the best engineer I ever worked with I could name him right now - and he DID NOT have an engineering degree! I think of the things I learned just by watching that man on almost every project.

Quit worrying about appearing ignorant or inexperienced. You are both! Admit it, embrace it, use it, wear it! That's who you are.

You want those guys' respect? It won't come from impressing them with your knowledge. It will come only from impressing them with your LOVE of knowledge, real knowledge from real experience in the real world, and your willlingness to learn from any and all sources. Go out of your way to incorporate absolutely as many of their suggestions and comments as possible. Prove to them by your actions that you value their wisdom and want to learn from them Do that and they will be the first to cut you some slack and even come to your defense if needed.

Trust me. I know. I've been on both sides several times.

Now, read this again.

One more time.

 

[steellion]

If it is something that affects the engineering, I will hold my ground. If it is something graphical, I like to empower our CADD technician (especially the older ones) to do whatever they think looks best and can be done correctly and efficiently. Also, the more experienced techs have put together a lot of buildings. Take their suggestions seriously. We let our more experienced folks often take the first shot at what they think the sections would look like. They may not be able to calculate what steel section size is needed, but they have the ability to put constructable sections together. Also, they are spending every day with the drawings/3D model. They often can spot issues that need to be addressed early. You shouldn't and don't need to lord over those without a fancy degree. At the end of the day, both of you know that the engineer will most likely progress further in their career, but the CADD techs can be a help or a hindrance in getting there.

 

[ctopher]

Just work together and come up with a conclusion that works for all of you, and the company.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[rotw]

I think bottom line is that if you disagree with Draftsman based on real technical grounds it is one thing even though I deem you need to soften any sentence you pronounce and add again on top of that a humble body language to be on safe side ; But if there is any underlying disdain to the profession of draftsman based on some sort of thinking that engineer must know better, I think it is purely not acceptable to not say clearly immature.
In addition I have respect for this particular profession because they are often working standing not sitting and it is physically demanding; and we are happy to make use of their drawings without realizing all the huge efforts they invested. Looking at what they do sometimes silently - all day long gives really a sense of humility.

"If you want to acquire a knowledge or skill, read a book and practice the skill".

 

[TheTick]

Don't worry about respect. Just work on having a functional relationship.

 

[bb29510]

my boss always says, the engineers know a little bit about everything but the technicians know everything about a little bit. He also says "there no crying in construction"

 

[TLHS]

Have a conversation. I tell everyone on my teams that I want to hear their opinions on our designs. Having people that are willing to tell you when they think you're wrong is valuable. I've had draftsmen come up with all sorts of clever solutions to things. I've also had draftsmen try to do things that make no engineering sense at all, or don't work because of something they aren't aware of.

Generally speaking, you should know why you're putting together designs and details in certain ways. If you can't explain why you're doing them that way, then it means you don't understand your design. You're starting out, so that's going to happen to you on occasion, but when it does your response should be to do research or ask people so that you do understand.

If you have a good reason, you can explain that reason to the person proposing an alternate solution. It also means you can decide whether it's better than an alternate. Sometimes the good reason can be that you're using a standard well tested way of doing something and there just isn't time or budget to do something different. You'll also have situations where you have to tell someone that their idea is good, but it's too late to do it on this project.

If someone makes a good faith effort to propose something and I don't think it's a good idea, I'll happily spend five or ten minutes explaining why I think the existing solution is better. It may turn out that my reasoning is wrong and they have a rebuttal. Either way, we both come out knowing more about what we're doing.

If you're in a situation where you're implementing someone else's work and you aren't fully sure why something was done a certain way, be honest about it. Tell the guy, "This is a markup from my boss. I'm not sure why he decided to do it that way but he's not here so we'll just have to draft it up like this for now," then ask your boss why it was done that way when you get the chance. You'll get a lot more respect out of people by being honest than trying to argue about something you aren't sure of.

 

[desertfox]

Hi ukbridge

Let me ask how much drafting have you done either during study or working?

 

[MortenA]

A lot of you guy dont seem to read the post before jumping to conclusion and posting a rant about young engineers not having respect for the ederly etc (e.g. Jboggs "The best thing you could do for yourself right now is to realize that now that "school" is behind you your REAL education can begin. That's right - BEGIN.")

But the problem described is that hes supervsing the implementeation of the work by SENIOR ENGINEERS - and when the draftsman deviates from the design the SENIOR ENGINEER is often not around. At these times hes not able to say exactly why the alternative design cant be used!

SO: My advice is that you could also discuss this with your senior engineer (remember to have some resent valid examples - not just loose talk). Make sure that you are not overly critisising the draftman but make it more a question of authority and trust - and maybe you will also get some menoring right there. This i would only recommend if talking to the draftsman does not seem to help. Maybe you should try the same angle with the draftsman. Ask him why the small modifications are introduced try to buy into it instead of creating a confrontation.