Graduate Degree Options 3

[Lion06]

I am closing the loop on a thread I started some time back about a master's program.
The masters program that I would like to enroll in will require me to take 7 undergrad classes (to fulfill their undergrad CE requirements in 3 of the other 4 disciplines - they will only count 2 of my 8 undergrad stuctural classes, because that is all they require). There are 4 other master's programs within approx. 50 miles and every one has told me that they wouldn't require me to take any additional classes (in fact, 2 of the 4 made a point to tell me that I've really taken a lot of structural classes).
The program I would like to enroll in is the most convenient for me - it is 10 minutes from my work and 35 minutes from my house. Also, I would rank the course offerings from this program near the top of the 5.
I have already taken 1 class there and got an A. I am taking another this spring.
That being said, I don't know if it is worth killing myself for 7 additional undergrad classes in fluids, transportation, and environmental engineering when I have no intention of EVER working in those disciplines and will not take any grad course in those disciplines.
Before you say 7 undergrad classes won't kill you.... I obviously work full time and have a wife and 2 kids at home. I did that for several years to get the undergrad degree, and it wasn't fun.
I am considering one other option. The university will let me take all the classes I want, but will not award me a degree until I complete their undergrad requirements. I am considering just taking the classes and saying "To hel* with the actual degree".
Would you think less of the 10 grad level classes on a resume if there weren't a degree attached to them?
I would like to get some opinions on which is the right way to head.
1. Take the classes and don't get the degree
2. Take the undergrad requirements and get the degree
3. Go to a different college

 

[whyun]

Answer may lie in WHY you would like to enroll in the masters program. If it is a degree that you are after, you will go there or somewhere else. If it is only for additional technical training/knowledge, take the masters classes or attend the training senimars offered by various trade organizations.

If it is for the extra bucks that a higher degree may bring you (which in turn will benefit your family), go for an MBA or a law degree rather than pursuing a technical masters degree.

If you are a soon-to-be college grad, my advice may have been different...

 

[KENAT]

Could you, take the classes you're interested in from the convenient school.

Once you've got them all shop around for the school that will take the least extra effort to assign you a Masters taking into account the classes you've taken.

Obviously you need to be carefull to avoid complete diploma mills (I nearly fell into that trap when I first moved here from the UK, found a place that would assign a Masters based on my UK BEng, a few trivial training classes and my 5 years experience!) but you might be able to find something.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[jpankask]

I think Kenat is on to something there. Taking the classes without the degree will make you a better engineer and the extra classes will impress some people if you find yourself looking for another job. But you could have 50 hours of graduate classes without the graduate degree and it likely will do diddly squat for you when it comes time to ask for more money for a master's degree or applying for a job that requires a master's degree.

I know when I was looking at graduate programs (however, not structural) I found several that would give you credit for classes at other universities. The caveat was that you had to complete the last 9 or 12 hours at the school where you get your degree from. Can you take the classes you want from the local, convenient program and then transfer to one of the others for the last year to actually get a degree? This will require close coordination to make sure all the classes you take will transfer or you are no better off than you are now.

7 undergrad prerequisites is a lot to lump onto a grad program as well. I know it would be a complete PITA but can you take an undergraduate class at the same time you are taking a graduate class? This would cut the length of time to get the degree but make that time much more difficult.

Ultimately, you need to decide how important is a degree to what you want to do and then how much effort can you put into it. I really don't think you will be happy putting an enormous amount of effort into taking the classes and essentially having nothing tangible to show for it. If I were a hiring manager and saw on a resume that you had 30 hours of graduate school but no MS, my first thought would be that you either washed out or your master's committee didn't pass you. After getting my MS part-time while working full time, if I had known when I started how hard it would be, I don't know that I would do it again. I am sure I wouldn't if you also told me I wouldn't get a degree out of it. That's not to say that the piece of paper is more important than the knowledge but the piece of paper is what gets you the compensation for the knowledge.

 

[KENAT]

Yeah, my wording was a bit off, I'd make your plan before you got the units, not wait till you have the units and wonder how to turn it into a masters, doh!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Lion06]

At the end of the day, I would take the all 10 classes with or without a degree. I am after the knowledge.
That being said, if I can get comparable knowledge by taking 10 similar classes somewhere else and have the degree is that the way to go.
My biggest concern is that I have seen numerous posts by experience engineers on here that would not even consider hiring a structural engineer with a BS only.
So, if I could took 10 grad classes, but didn't have a MS would I just have a B.S. with some grad classes or would the hiring manager recognize the level of grad school work?

 

[Lion06]

I could take the undergrad at the same time, but that is difficult. Not that the classes are difficult, but just finding time to do the required work while not attending class is difficult. I would have to take them by just going in for the tests because I can't take off for 2 hours in the middle of the day 3 days a week to attend an undergrad hydrology class.
The other 4 programs I have looked into will allow me to transfer up to 3 classes into their MS program.

jpankask-
Would you have that same thought of someone who had 10 A's?

 

[jpankask]

Yes, that would be my first thought, especially if you had all A's and no degree. If the rest of the resume intrigued me, I would pursue it further and give you a chance to explain, unless my position REQUIRED a master's degree. However, more than a few years out of school, your GPA doesn't matter anyway. What a manager decides to do with graduate classes and no degree will be highly dependent on the individual manager and the position applied for.

In my company (which is one fairly small company out of thousands) a MS is not required for any job but a MS gives you more credit toward advancement and ultimately, then, salary. No credit is given for graduate work without the degree. That said, not everyone here knows that I have a master's degree but they do know the job that I can do, which is in part due to the knowledge and skills I gained while getting that master's degree.

It really goes back to what you are going to do with your career and whether you plan to seek jobs that might require a master's degree. Having the degree in structural engineering will never hurt you. Not having it may limit your choices at times. If you are OK with that, just go for the knowledge and let your work speak for itself.

 

[whyun]

If you are disciplined enough, you don't even have to attend formal classroom sessions to gain technical knowledge. If knowledge alone is what you are after, find a topic of interest, example: Design of Aluminum Structures, find all related standards/textbooks, then go through those books in a library. I know how difficult it is to concentrate with children in the house so local library or college library should do it.

Many companies have training budgets for each employee. Make best use of it and attend mini seminars offered through your local SEA.

Guys requiring M.S. minimum for employment are really fooling themselves. I've seen plenty good engineers with leadership potential only with a B.S. I've also seen M.S. and Ph.D's that are not all that. It really depends on the individual and advertising M.S. only for positions is limiting the candidate pool.

 

[sms]

One way or another, get the degree.. a bunch of classes on a transcript says you are a professional student. A completed degree says you are interested in jumping through the hoops, finishing up, and moving on to other things.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[abusementpark]

StructuralEIT,

Why in the world are they making you take those undergrad classes? You don't need transportation or water classes to pursue graduate level structures classes. Is your undergraduate degree not in civil engineering?

Just out of curiosity, what structural classes have you taken already as an undergrad?

 

[Lion06]

My undergraduate degree is in Structural Design which falls under an Engineering Technology designation as far as ABET is concerned because it only covers 1 discipline (structural engineering) and construction management. Civil Engineering requires classes in 4 disciplines. I have all of the calc based physics, math up to diff. eq., etc... The only thing is that 4 of my classes are ET classes (a construction methods and materials class and 3 construction management classes). But along with that I have the following Engineering classes: (2) concrete classes, (2) steel classes, (2) analysis classes, (1) foundations class, and (1) class about wind/seismic loading and some advanced topics (for undergrad anyway) like diaphragms and shearwalls.
I pretty much was able to substitute the other non-structural undergrad classes for structural classes and now I am being punished for it by a program that only requires structural classes!

 

[abusementpark]

Wow, you are getting punished for getting a degree that better prepared you for your job than those of us who went into structures via the civil engineering degree!! Some construction management classes would have been much more beneficial to me than those stupid environmental engineering and transportation classes. If I were you, I would try to find a way to go one of those other schools. I am beginning a master's program in the spring, and I couldn't fathom having to take 7 additional undergrad classes (that are essentially pointless) along with regular graduate requirements just to get a master's. I think if you take classes without getting the degree, you always be frustrated about the amount of effort you put in without the diploma to show for it. Granted, a employer should be able to recognize your situation and understand the circumstances.

Think of it this way: the time you will spend dealing with those undergrad classes (showing up, homework, studying) will outweigh the time you will spend having to commute. If your current employer will let you work odd hours to get your 40 in for week, then it is certainly possible to go to another school, especially if you can get your classes on Tuesday and Thursday.

Good luck with whatever you decide, but I think the undergraduate classes, which you won't even be interested in, will make you sick of school.

 

[jpankask]

StructuralEIT,

Without knowing your specific driving force for the education/degree, maybe you would be interested in earning a structural engineering certificate from a university that offers this via distance education. The University of Missour-Rolla and the University of Idaho are two that I found one time while doing a search. There may be others. The structural engineering certificate is basically half of a masters degree. You complete 12 hours of distance learning classes to earn the certificate. The catch is that your choice of classes are pretty limited. For example at UMR, you must choose 4 classes out of a possible 12. Substitutions are permitted with permission but I believe all hours must be taken from the University where you receive the certificate.

If you do not need the degree, this may be one shorter way to obtain some more education and get a piece of paper out of the deal. No questions raised on your resume, unless of course you apply for a job that requires a graduate degree. Last I checked, I think UMR was $755 per credit hour and U of Idaho was $500 per credit hour. Successful completion of the certificate also allows you entrance into the master's program, if you want.

For more information check out:

http://dce.umr.edu/Credit/Certificates/contemporarystructuralengr.html

http://www.outreach.uidaho.edu/eo/ViewPage.aspx?pid=42

 

[jistre]

Fulfillment of the B.S. level requirements will likely be required of you at any ABET accredited school you attend.

From ABET-EAC 207-2008 Criteria for Accrediting Engineering Programs:

"Criteria for masters level programs are completion of a program of study satisfying the general criteria for baccaureate level engineering programs, one academic year of study beyond the baccalaureate level, and an engineering project or research activity resulting in a report that demonstrates both mastery of the subject matter and a high level of communication skills."

Just something to be aware of as you decide your path.

 

[Lion06]

jistre-

I am not following that. Are you talking about an accredited Master's? If so, ABET will only accredit a BS or a MS, not both. Most universities go the BS accreditation route.
If you are talking about any school with a MS program that offers an accredited BS program, then I have to disagree with you because the other 4 schools I referenced all have ABET accredited CE programs and wouldn't require a single additional class for me to enroll in their MS program.

 

[jistre]

I did mean accredited MS program, StructuralEIT. For some reason, my mind was stuck on stupid and translated the engineering tech degree into you definitely wanting to go into an accredited MSCE program.

You're absolutely right. If the BS program is ABET accredited, then the MS program won't be and doesn't necessarily have to follow those guidelines. It looks like you're lucky enough to live nearest to a university that adheres to both the BS and MS requirements.

 

[whyun]

I've been out of school too long to know what a Engineering Tech designation is. Is it considered a Bachelor of Science Degree or is it equivalent to an Associate's degree?

In any case, if I were you, I would put my priority on obtaining a P.E. license. In the process of preparing for the exam(s), you can learn a whole lot.

I agree with abusementpark about you being punished for getting a degree that better prepared you for your job.

Structural discipline should have seceded from Civil a long time ago.

 

[Lion06]

whyun-
It is a B.S. degree. I was required to take 132 credits (typical requirements for most BSCE degrees).

 

[whyun]

I hope to see your ID as StructuralPE soon. Regards.