Hand-holding vs "Google it"? 13

[ParabolicTet]

I provide IT and engineering tech. support to mechanical engineers. Often these folks want to learn more about some new programming language. They expect me to prepare a lecture and teach them how to program. This seems so inefficient to my method of just googling it.

In a few hours I can pick up the basics from following some online tutorial. I can learn at my pace and focus on things I know I will use. With the classroom approach it is in one ear and out the next. Unless you actually apply the knowledge you will quickly forget it. Plus you will learn so many things that you will likely never use.

I wonder why are so many engineers fixated on classroom learning vs. self learning ? I find it kind of annoying cause it's not something I expect of an engineer.

 

[GregLocock]

Well given your past posts on your attitude to support I'm not surprised.

I do agree in this case, being lectured at by a resentful IT droid is unlikely to be a better learning experience than on line learning.

So, if this is an actual situation, why don't you review the various on line resources and put together a helpful list of where your long-suffering customers should be looking? I can tell you now, that in my field the on-line MOOCs etc vary from impenetrable to brilliant.



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Agent666]

I find to teach yourself something you have no/limited idea about initially you often need some verification from others that you 'have things right' at some point, or you need some sort of place to start which is where classroom learning can help as starting out in a new language can sometimes be quite overwhelming depending on what languages they already are proficient with (as many have similarities, while others are quite different).

I think classroom learning probably helps to get a feel for writing 'good' code (depending on teacher), having to figure out some other persons poorly written code or logic can be quite hard. Sometimes to the point where if you know what is being done its easier to rewrite it in a way that follows better programming logic.

I taught myself VBA and snippets of other languages over several years by just 'googling it' and playing around until what I wanted to do worked. I use VBA fairly regularly now in spreadsheet development, but the other languages don't get used much so like you say you pretty much forget those if not using all the time (bodged together code that works at the time, but reading it a year later its quite hard to follow what I was thinking for example!).

I can imagine I probably would have gotten to where I am now using VBA a little faster had I taken some sort of initial course to get a feel for the basics/intermediate stuff (initially it was a steep learning curve, previous experience consisted of programming in basic on my commodore 64 about 20 years ago!).

For some people they want it all handed to them on a platter, some need it all handed to them on a platter, others manage to get there under their own steam using other references like books or google.

Might depend on whether they are learning on company time, or in their own time, might get there faster if shown the ropes so to speak if they are getting paid to learn. In this context this sounds like part of your job role potentially to facilitate this aspect? Just because its not the way you learn doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

If the people just want to do something particular in the language as a one off rather than learning the language like the back of their hand they might need some more focused help. As you note, if you simply dabble in it from time to time you need to keep using it to keep it fresh in your mind.

 

[IRstuff]

"In a few hours I can pick up the basics from following some online tutorial. I can learn at my pace and focus on things I know I will use. With the classroom approach it is in one ear and out the next. Unless you actually apply the knowledge you will quickly forget it. Plus you will learn so many things that you will likely never use."

With that attitude, one can clearly see that you are neither interested nor suited to teach your engineers anything. Firstly, the "classroom approach" is an antiquated concept, and you could surely do better with a hands-on approach. There are many examples on the web where such classes take you through a series of exercises that both educate and train the student on concepts and applications at the same time. And certainly, one can focus the class on the things that the students would most likely use.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[CWB1]

Sounds like you're comparing a class taught by the stereotypical university professor who has never worked in industry (aka a professional teacher) with online individual learning. I think if you ask most engineers they'd prefer taking a class from someone with industry experience over either of the first two, which tend to be equally full of useless drivel.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Funny.

Our "IT droids" tend to ask us "mechanical engineers" how to program. They often think we must have been on some course, because that's where stuff's learned.

Maybe you [OP] are a wannabe engineer, stuck in a support role?

Steve

 

[rotw]

To me it is positive that mechanical engineers are interested in learning IT/programming stuffs (all though I can imagine that any mechanical engineer has some basics from school, etc). Means it is a boundaryless attitude to be promoted. Just for this reason alone, people should look how to develop synergies as versatile knowledge/skills can be a good leverage and asset for any competitive company especially nowdays: new digital era, new challenges. IMO, bottom line is not Classroom vs. Online, instead it should be how to nurture this and not create another 'missed opportunity'.

 

[GregLocock]

In my case, on my own time, I get sucked into Python/R/Matlabesque based on-line courses on what might loosely be described as datacrunching and machine learning. I can see why people like R, I know why people hate Matlaby things, and the sheer energy of the py community almost guarantees that time spent on python is not wasted.

OTOH, the Matlab based open days, conferences, and so on are easily the most eye opening training I get in a typical year.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[MikeHalloran]

My wife the teacher says that some people, maybe most, just cannot learn, without the rigor and guidance, or whatever it is, that a classroom brings.

I have noticed that some people, e.g. my wife the teacher, have great difficulty using a search engine, e.g. adjusting queries until their actual question is covered. Such people would not be able to find the YouTube video covering exactly what they need.

Even if a third party, say ParabolicTet the OP, found the perfect lesson on video and cued it up for them, some people could not learn from the canned content in the same way they would learn from a live person delivering the same content.

Parabolic, be grateful to have a job, smile, and do what it requires.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[rotw]

Star for Mike!

 

[TheTick]

Why Is training the engineers PTet’s job? They’re not his subordinates. PTet has his own job to do, and that job is not leading programming classes. Engineering managers also have their own job to do, which includes overseeing the training needs of the engineers.

 

[IRstuff]

"Why Is training the engineers PTet’s job?"

Seems to me that an IT person with supposedly CS education would be suited to teach programming, aside from being unmotivated and contemptuous of the students.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[TheTick]

You're suited for sailboat ballast, but no one demands it from you.

 

[TheTick]

So there you are, doing your job, keeping the computers running and your boss and customers nominally happy. Some blithering boob wanders in from another department and says "You can learn this thing I want to know. Learn it and then teach me."

For nothing.

Adding to you workload, ignoring your actual duties (and other internal customers whom you must serve, because it's your actual job).

"You're a bad person!" blusters the blithering engineer. "I want something! Gimme Gimme GIMME!"

No. No one "should" anything. PTet has his own job to do. He (she?) has no more obligation to teach engineers code than the engineers have to design the marketing director's new lake house.

Honesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

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-SolidWorks API VB programming help

 

[TheTick]

IT guy walks past engineer's desk. He spots a new caliper and likes it. It's so shiny.

"You should buy me one like that." Engineer says "OK. It's just money. I can always work longer."

Happily ever after.

The end.

 

[ParabolicTet]

I guess there are three ways to learn:

1) On-site training provided by vendor
2) On-site by in-house engineer (me)
3) Learn yourself by googling it in 1/10'th the time and cost

If people have money to burn then by all means pick #1 or #2. To me it seems ironic since engineers are meant to be resourceful people who are all about making things efficient. If you can only learn by someone hand-holding then why did you become an engineer?

 

[IRstuff]

"To me it seems ironic since engineers are meant to be resourceful people who are all about making things efficient. "

Or, perhaps, they see that you have infinitely more time on your hands and it's actually more "efficient" for you to do the research and follow dead ends while they're doing the paid work, particularly when you make statements like, "In a few hours I can pick up the basics from following some online tutorial."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[racookpe1978]

Every engineer, packing machine operator, or IT guru walking into your office has a "standard job order" (his/her payroll is paid from an operating, maintenance, sales, or engineering or manufacturing internal budget.)

You, too, have an operating budget your boss pays you from. Might be several budgets, depending on how precise your company is about assigning staff to different sales contracts and projects.

Let us assume your training time is worth something. I have not trained under you as an instructor, I will make no assumptions about whether or not you can actually train some one else, or whether that person is worth training in your opinion, your boss's opinion (which is what really counts) or his/her boss's opinion. Which counts even more.

If any potential trainee needs
Establish a policy: <1/4 hour, simple counseling and guidance = No charge, no job order allowance.
1/4 hour to 1/2 hour, their time is logged against that department, but no charge.
1/2 hour to 1 hour = You need boss's permission. It is logged.
1 hour or more (including classroom prep time and lesson planning and material preparations or rental), software rental or programming = Job order needed from that department to work on it.

 

[ParabolicTet]

"Or, perhaps, they see that you have infinitely more time on your hands and it's actually more "efficient" for you to do the research and follow dead ends while they're doing the paid work, particularly when you make statements like, "In a few hours I can pick up the basics from following some online tutorial."

That makes sense . I suppose only large corporations with specialized engineers can afford this luxury.. This is just an example of how corporations work that I have to learn to accept..

 

[GregLocock]

In my book its pretty simple. If it is part of your job to train/mentor people (as a senior engineer for example, it is part of my job) then you need to decide the best way forward. "Google it", is probably not fulfilling that role.

If training is not part of your job and you aren't interested then I would have the thought the answer was bleeding obvious. Tell them to go away. If it isn't part of your job but something you are interested in (this is called future proofing your career) then be helpful not lame.

So which is it?





Cheers

Greg Locock


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