hard time understanding management 11

[jeffcivil2]

I'm a civil engineer with about 4.5 years experience having a hard time at work that's causing emotional stress and need to seek some advice.

I work in a small civil engineering/landscape architecture firm. The two owners of the company are both seniors and do most of the work. They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory. The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them in the form of rude remarks. I am upset with this because I don't have a lot of work because they don't ever delegate work for me to do. They have a crappy way of management where they walk around and say "what are you working on?" I find this to be very arrogant such that I want to blurt out "you tell me, you're supposed to be my manager". I've had this problem with another engineering firm I worked for. There is a complete lack of management.

I'm so upset I'm thinking of changing careers and I'm thinking that NO WONDER engineers are the lowest on the totum pole as far as pay scale profession-wide. In my opinion they shouldn't have to ask me if i'm busy or when I'll be done. If they really were half-decent managers they would pile stuff on me instead. I asked my boss once why he didn't just pile stuff on my desk and his response was: "because we're trying to gauge your progress".

I've gotten to the point where I really don't care about this job or this profession.

 

[MintJulep]

The skills required to be a good manager are not the same skills required to be a good engineer.

Some people have both sets of skills, many have one or the other (and many neither).

It certainly sounds like your bosses now and in the past haven't been good managers.

Don't condemn the entire industry or profession for the incompetence of a few individuals.

Start looking for a new job.

 

[Lion06]

I would second mintjulep's comments. Don't lump all managers or all firms in the profession together. I had a horrible experience at my first job out of school - so bad that I only stayed there two weeks. I landed where I am now and I love it. The management is great, the office environment is great.... it really is a great place to learn and grow professionally.
That being said, you are right; engineers are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to pay scales for professionals. I made more (about 25% more) when I was building storm doors 5 years ago than I am as an engineer with 2 years of experience right now. I wasn't insinuating that was a professional position, only trying to show how underpaid engineers are.

 

[rday]

Agreed. If they are truely making rude remarks it may be time to move on.

To speak to the "what are you working on" question. I am one of two senior engineers in a small civil/structral office with two principals. The junior staff often works on projects for both the senior engineers and the principals. So when I come in and ask what one of the junior staff is working on, it is really to discuss their workload with them as I really may not know all the tasks they have on their list. I need to be able to delegate work to the person most able to complete it.

This is different from larger offices I worked in where work only comes from one person (more like each manager has a team). In that situation the manager knows what each person is doing and can delegate work appropriately.

A good manager does not just "pile stuff" on junior staffs desks. Work needs to allocated to the proper person with the required skills to meet budget and schedule.

It sounds like you may simply be more comfortable in a larger office setting where a single manager exercises more control over your workload. Different strokes.

 

[ajack1]

Could it not also be seen as arrogant to think that you know more about management than your current managers and your previous one with only 4 and a half years experience?

Why is it “crappy management” to ask what you are working on? If they own the company and do most of the work as you say then they will also be trying to keep track of work load, cash flow, setting up meeting with clients for future work, ensuring all current work is on time and to standard, dealing with accountants the list goes on and on, why would they know better than you what you are doing?

Try turning it around with a positive answer something like, I am working on project X, I am waiting on some figures from Joe but I will have my presentation ready for Tuesdays meeting, would you like me to leave a copy on your desk Monday evening? I will be free to pick up more work next Thursday, would you like me to look at project Y or do you have something else you would sooner I did?

 

[cvg]

agree with all responses so far and also communication works both ways. If you are looking for work, ask for it. If you are unsure what to do, go give your supervisor a status report of your work and then ask "what should I do next?" Or, say something like - "can I go home now, I have nothing to work on?" I guarantee that either they will give you more work or find someone who can.

 

[spider007]

Once you are done a task that they assigned to you, ASK for another one. If you’re waiting to receive something that’s holding you up on current project, and you’re not doing anything at the moment - GO ask for something else to do in the mean time. Don't just wait for them to come around asking what you’re doing. And if they do come around asking what you’re doing, tell them about all the balls you’re juggling; "I’m waiting for this, I got that done, I’m still working on this, but this is bugging me...."

Impress them...show some initiative!!!

 

[jeffcivil2]

The "what are you working on" thing is not the question itself but the way it's asked. The way I perceive it to be asked is "you damn better be working on something right now" because when I respond with "nothing" or "i'm free" they seem to get upset and play it like I'm a bad employee with no work ethic.

My opinion is that's micro-management. They want to control everything.. they want to know exactly what I'm working on and don't want me to think freely and they don't seem to appreciate it when I choose to self-manage myself during free hours and spend a little extra time on a task because either

A) it's hard to define "done". nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better.

B) There is nothing else on my desk and so I can only believe there's no work to be done.

I have managed small projects in another firm. When doing so, I felt that it was my responsibility to properly delegate work, and I would never get upset at a subordinate especially since I know that it's my job to keep people working and efficient. And if I called someone out in the office for not working because they weren't delegated I would know that I am only hurting the project because employees aren't very efficient at all when they are pissed off all the time.

I think these guys are trying to run the company out of fear to make up for their lack of management ability. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I have to let anyone destroy my self confidence. I can easily find another job, get a raise doing so, and they can have fun re-training a new employee while I take my newly learned skills elsewhere. Their loss.

 

[ykee]

Clearly you are not happy, and I don't think will ever be happy with your managers.

Why did they hire you if they don't have a lot of work for you to do?

 

[Atomic25]

At 4.5 years, you should have the confidence to tell them you don't have anything to work on. Apologize in advance if this sounds harsh, but if one of my guys with that much experience didn't communicate their workload back to me, I would not be happy with him either.

Pick out a project you want to work on and tell them you want to work on it. If they dont let you, ask them why. If you don't think their reasoning benefits your career, then look elsewhere or discuss here with us. Maybe you have some qualities they dont like....but you'll never know unless you assert yourself. Yea, a better manager would sit you down in a yearly review and discuss such things, but in a small office it doesn't always happen.

There are plenty of good firms out there who pay good money. I wouldn't give up just yet...

 

[melone]

It sounds like you've already made up your mind....

 

[Krautso]

I manage staff in addition to my own duties and its easy to fly under the radar when your boss is busy. "what are you working on?" is a common phrase for me because in my position I often am the first to be notified of time-sensitive higher priority work that needs to be done. Dumping it on someones desk does not mean that it gets done and that staff member might already be working on something time sensitive that I'm not aware of (there is some measure of autonomy for my staff members in service delivery). As a manager I have to prioritize work that gets done in the office and to do that I need to ask what tasks are currently being done.

You sound offended and perhaps its all in the delivery. A clean desk means your neat, not that you have nothing to do. Show initiative and ask for work. If I ask a staff member what they're doing and the reply is "nothing, I finished the last thing you gave me days ago" I'd be pretty disappointed as it was the staff members responsibility to notify me of project/task status and that includes "complete".

If your managers are so busy, perhaps you should learn what they are working on and see if you can learn those skills too. If the relationship isn't too damaged already, perhaps you can ask to sit in and assist your boss(es) in their current project. If they would rather you sit in front of an empty desk all day than learn to help with work that they're so busy with, you should dust off the resume.

 

[GregLocock]

I like Krautso's view.

FWIW I'm in the middle of a crunch that will last about two months. At the start of each week (or more often) I issue a schedule for the next two months showing what I will be doing /each day/. Yet when a new request comes in I still get asked what I'm working on. That doesn't bug me particularly, at least if something is falling off the table it gives me a chance to flag problems to a nominally interested party.

So, the question itself seems innocent enough, but maybe you should be a bit more of a self starter. Certainly 4 years after graduating you should have enough experience to do that.







Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[gwynn]

I agree with Krautso as well. Even in the small office I work in the boss often won't know what I'm working on. He's too busy on his own projects to constantly keep tabs on me.

I have never sat around without work on my desk. I honestly could not bring myself to do so. The first time my desk was empty was maybe six months into my first (and current) job. I went looking for work to do, and found piles of it.

It's really in everyone's benifit that you look for projects when you don't have one. I'm pretty sure my actions were part of why my pay and seniority proceeded faster than others and I'm certain it's why others in the office have no problem taking projects of my desk when I'm swamped.

If you find yourself at a loss for work, just ask for more.

 

[jmw]

Sometimes what people say isn't what they mean. "What are you working on now?" may simply be a conversational gambit and they are trying simply to keep in touch; appear to be open etc. (Of course, you do say it is the way they ask but that may be because they are frustrated by the failure of this gambit with you..!)

For example it is quite common for people when they meet to say "Hello, how are you?" You reply "Hello, I'm fine thanks, how about you?"
You are not expected to reply with "Well, I have slight temperature, my feet hurt, I have a hangover and I'm having a real problem with my prostrate."

In Chinese the greeting is "Ni Hao" which means "How are you?" but if they really want to know about your medical condition that will say "Ni Hao ma" where ma is an interrogative.... much easier when there is a clear distinction between a polite opening gambit and a genuine health enquiry.

Try a different answer next time.... treat it as a conversational gambit. You never know, they may actually not want to be blinded with engineering, they just want to know that you are doing something and are happy working for them...

I could be wrong, I often am but if you've about made up your mind to move on, what have you to lose?

How about "Oh this and that, the X project for so and so and the Y project for that another so and so. Its all going pretty smoothly and I'm looking forward to the next set of projects. Hey, great game last night, wasn't it?" (end with a question they have to answer... but if your boss is a golf fan, choose a golf game to ask about. He will want to answer that. If they really want to know about work, then they should be reading the reports you submit.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[jorton]

A manager's objective is to get the work completed. It is not to watch after employees. The employee's job is to do whatever needs to be done to meet the manager's objective. They are not there for you; you are there for them. To me it sounds like you are criticizing them for giving you too much leash and for micromanaging all in the same breath.

 

[IRstuff]

Either you're REALLY bad at picking companies and bosses, or you've got an attitude problem. Bad bosses are nothing new, and it's troubling that you can't distinguish between a profession and personality problems. Do you really think that some other profession is immune from having bad bosses? If so, you're going to be sadly disappointed.


Where's your responsibility in all of this? If you're underutilized, what have YOU done about it? In our company, the functional manager manages over 50 engineers. He barely has time to talk to most of them, much less, keep track of whether they're 100% utilized.



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[ykee]

Based on your OP, would it be safe to say: you managers are technically proficient, but have no good managerial skills, and likely poor customer relation skills, hence the reason why their company is small. Do your best to learn from this experience, and look for another job -- Remember that dealing with people of all different personality types is something that is inevitable. When you do move on, chalk this one up to experience, and don't look back.

 

[Helicopterjunky]

Playing good cop and bad cop. In twenty-five years I have had two occasions when I asked for more work and it was not appreciated. The first was with a boss in a large company who initially took the request as personal, that others might say he could not keep his people occupied. The second the managers deliberately slowed and avoided giving me work in order that their departmental backlog looked bigger on paper than it actually was. My present job is great, if I ask the boss for more he will try his best to find additional work for me.

However, just getting upset because your bosses ask what you are working on is not the right attitude. As many others pointed out managing people is tough and most managers cannot know everything their folks are working on. If you are done with your assigned projects or in waiting mode you need to offer to help on other projects. If they still refuse to give you anything to do, then unless you like sitting around all day, you may want to find another job. However, your post comes across as awfully judgemental of your bosses. It is probably a differnt view from their shoes.

 

[jeffcivil2]

I think that the census is that the boss has every right to be angry because I'm underutilized. However it's also their fault because instead of confronting me in a respectful manner about it they choose to yell at me and embarrass me in front of my colleagues which both angers me and reduces my productivity by about 50%.

Thanks for the advice I will work on that, but for now I'm angered at the rude remarks so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day.

In the end everybody loses in an office that is unfriendly.