high school senior needs info on career in automotive engineering

[carpassion]

Hi im not sure if this a good place to post, but I would really appreciate the help. Im a senior in high school. I'm planning on going to Purdue University in Indiana where I will enter the PIE program: dual degree consisting of mechanical engineering and german studies. Its a 5 year program and in the 5th year i do an internship in Germany. The info i have gathered is quite vague but it does say the program is for those seeking careers in automotive engineering and others. interning for a german auto company would be such an awesome experience. Back to the point, how did you guys enter the automotive industry? Did you study mechanical engineering or automotive engineering (Im a little confused here; was under the impression mechanical would consist of automotive. would like to be enlightened).

Finally, as a senior Im just taking trigonometry pulling a B- and physics pulling an A-. Many of my friends are taking AP calculus and AP physics and are doing well grade wise. Am I still a good candidate for such a rigorous career?

Feedback is much appreciated. thanks,
-Josh

 

[GregLocock]

I did a mechanical engineering degree, at the time automotive engineering was not available in the UK, at serious universities.

Your course sounds like a sensible move, but in practice many English speaking engieers work in Germany quite happily, so German is a nice-to-have. Japanese or Chinese would be a much more useful choice.

Five year at uni is gonna cost you.

I doubt you'll find that an automotive engineering degree is any advantage over a mechanical engineering degree, all things being equal.

If you are struggling with maths then you will find engineering rather difficult. The course is about 20% maths, every year, and you will need that maths for the more theoretical papers.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I'm not convinced that AP high school classes do anyone any good.

If your physics and math are strong, you could do okay.

Automotive engineering is a fairly narrow specialty within the much larger universe of mechanical engineering. You may end up doing something you've never heard of, or something I've never heard of.

The automotive world in particular is global now. It would be a good idea to pick up some conversational Spanish and Chinese in addition to the German you will need.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[GregLocock]

Think about Korean.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[safetydan]

Your high school courses are sufficient, as long as they meet the requirements of the university to which you are applying. Getting an ME degree is probably the best way to go, and make sure you take the classes that are going to help you in the auto industry. The German internship sounds like a brilliant move and can do nothing but help. Japanese might be a good class or two to take, especially with the committment Honda and Toyota are making in the US.

Are you wanting to be in the design sector, or the manufacturing sector of the auto industry?

 

[NickE]

Go for ME, (or if you're weird like me go Materials (metallurgy))

My learning more about a variety of things you will definately be better prepared.

Here's a good thread:

thread108-163162


Nick
I love materials science!

 

[MechanicalChef]

My advice is pretty much similar to stated above. It's hard to know where you'll be, or want to be in 4/5 years, so you may not want to limit yourself to strictly automotive. ME could be a better choice. Furthermore, I wouldn't balk at a 5-year commitment. A large number of engineering graduates are on the 5-year plan these days. And that's due to any number of reasons, not all relating to failing classes.

To be honest, the type of problems you're working in phsyics class will be much more similar to the type of work you'll see at the university level, albeit somewhat more complex. In my experience, the differentiating factor between the people who did well/passed classes and washed out the first year was whether or not they did the homework and studied.

So just because you're not taking AP calc in highschool doesn't preclude you from eventually becoming an engineer. But you've got to be willing to work hard to get there.

good luck.

 

[carpassion]

I really appreciate all the info you guys are giving me. If I get accepted to Purdue I will definitely do the ME. I live in socal so i have also applyed to csu long beach and pomona, pomona being a polytechnic school. Both offer ME, which i will also pursue granted I am not accepted to Purdue. I can definitely see how Japanese w/ ME would be smart, but my heart lies with the Germans. would love to intern for mb, bmw, porsche.

thanks again
-Josh

 

[sbozy25]

Purdue is an exellent school. But you need to weigh in the factors that your average class size will be from 100-500 your first 2-3 years. At that point you might get lucky and have class sizes around 50ish. Many students find this a tough transition and strugle with the lack of professor attention. I had many friends that I went to HS with that were very smart and motivated students go to Purdue. The sad fact 99% of them either changed majors within 2 years or dropped out. If you are really serious about the posibility of automotive engineering you might check into smaller schools that have a strong automotive background. For example, I attended Tri-State University (North East Indiana). They are a small division 3 school that is primarily engineering. Their mechanical engineering program is just like any other exept your class size never gets over 35 and there are no TA's. When you enter your 4th year you get to make a choice of what to focus on: Aerospace, Machine Design/Automotive, HVAC, or Metallurgy... At that point your class size dwindles to 10 or less and is very focused. I myself entered the Aerospace stem and yet I find my self working at an automotive steering column and shifter supply company as a design engineer...

Again, not trying to step on your dream school... Just trying to put some reality into your head. I as well wanted to go to Purdue and now I am glad I didn't!

 

[NickE]

Tri-State looks fine, I couldnt find Cost information, most private schools cost much more than public schools.

They are ABET accredited in chemical, civil, electrical, and mechanical engineering.

I dont see a mention of a materials science/engineering program, likely its not a full fledged program but treated as a specialization of ChemEng... Dont see why it would be a specialization of MechEng, not enough chemistry and thermo...

There is something to be said for a small school. I went to one, and for the last 3years of my program I was in the same classes all day, every day, with the same 25 people... Until a few senior electives broke that into 10-15people...

Its nice when everyone knows your name.

I think that the classes I had that were taught by Teaching Assistants were some of my best. There is a whole different challenge when learning from someone whos native language is not english. It's an important skill to be able to communicate across language boundaries.

 

[sbozy25]

http://www.tristate.edu/engineering/mec/Curriculum/MECURR.pdf

This shows the curiculum of an average ME student @ TSU

Also, yes it does cost a bit more than state schools. However, Out of state schools are just as expensive. Also at the bigger schools there is a much larger competition for scholarships. I mean back when I chose TSU they gave my an $11,000 accademic scholarhip. I was lucky enough to leave there with only $17,000 in loans.


haha you think that is small, my senior year there were only 3 of us in my classes. We were the only 3 that decided to go the Aero stem...

 

[NickE]

Shawn - I went to the biggest Metallurgy program in teh contry... (or so I've heard).

Although my freshman year I paid $62/credit. By '98 when I had graduated that was up to ~$100. My last credit of Grad school cost $711.

Since engineering salaries havent really grown much since 2001, having less in loans might be a good idea. I think I finished both undergrad and partially funded grad school with ~$20,000.

 

[65Roses]

If you want to work in automotive design get a mechanical engineering degree. If you want to work in automotive assembly get a degree in mechatronics engineering.

Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit

http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/

to learn why!

 

[Rob45]

Carp:
When I was in your position, quite a long time ago, I went for the ME degree. Don't let the prospect of 5 years in school discourage you; that's what a good program will take.

Purdue's got a good engineering school, far better than most; you'd be surprised at the variation among engineering schools.

Just don't make the mistake of thinking you know now exactly what branch of automotive you're going to be in; that all changes the first day of your first job.

I'm not so sure though that the German language study will do you any good; once long ago good fundamental research was being done in German, but that's not very much the case anymore. The German auto industry is on life-support, with a couple of exceptions, and their engineering practices are unique to their highly-unionized environment.
You might take the time you'd otherwise spend studying German and put it toward a graduate degree.

If you just want to travel in Europe, well that's a fine thing to do, but don't con yourself.

 

[TStaples]

Carpassion,

I know you stated that you have your heart set on Purdue and a German internship, but you may want to consider a different path. For automotive engineering, it's pretty tough to beat the program at Kettering University (formerly known as General Motors Institute or GMI; Now named for Boss Kettering of Delco Labs, inventor of the electric starter, electric ignition, engine driven generators, and many other things. The guy even has a patent for the treatment of VD! I'm not sure if that's good or bad!)

The drawback is it's still located in Flint, MI. However, the education as preparation for an automotive career is world class, and very highly regarded within the automotive community. I've worked with Japanese engineers from Toyota, and German engineers from BMW, and Mercedes, and they didn't know much about US engineering schools, but they had all heard of GMI.

It's a minimum 5 year plan, as you co-op throughout your school years. 3 months work, 3 months school, repeat 8 more times, and then write your thesis to graduate. I don't know if this is still true, but when I went to GMI in the '80's, it was the only US undergrad engineering program that required a thesis to complete. I started the first year it went private, and was one of the first students sponsored by a company other than GM. The best part is that everything that is practical and hands-on (i.e. lab work, SAE programs, thesis, etc . . .) is all totally automotive based. For example, I learned plastic molding, and molding machine operation, by molding 1978 Camaro dashboards on surplus tooling and equipment donated by GM.

It sounds like you have a clear vision of where you want to head. But, just in case, Kettering gives you an opportunity to start working in the automotive world as a co-op. You get to find out very quickly if the reality of an automotive career is what you really want. It also gives you an opportunity to earn money while working to pay for school. I graduated with a BSEE and zero student loans, and paid for most of my education myself. I received maybe $2k worth of financial help from my parents over 5 years.

Food for thought. It worked for me. Good luck in whatever you chose to do, and I hope you maintain your enthusiasm throughout your career!

-Tony Staples

http://www.tscombustion.com

 

[Ataloss]

Hi Tony,
I'm a GMI/Kettering graduate too, (though much later than you - I graduated in 99) and things have changed quite a bit since you went there.

One big change is that while it used to be entirely automotive focused, the school realized they were alienating many students with this approach and have greatly expanded the fields you can focus on. Some of the areas they've expanded into are applied physics, bio-chemistry, computer science; even mechanical engineers can ignore cars by specializing in biomedical design. Their automotive programs are still top notch though, and you can still concentrate completely on cars if you want to.

While the 5 year plan is still pretty typical, finishing in 4.5 years is quite common, and finishing in more than 5 is pretty rare. For those that aren't familiar with Kettering, as Tony mentioned you go to school for 3 months, then work for 3 months and keep flipping back and forth. Your fifth year, however, you only have one school term. Your second school term of your fifth year is dedicated to your thesis, which is actually done at your co-op employer, so you're actually at work getting paid. The school is talking about cutting the curriculum down more to be 4.5 years standard instead of 5. I don't know if they're looking at cutting some classes out, adding more credit hours to a few terms or what.

I think the biggest change that I saw between your experience and mine is that very few students graduate with little or no student debt. The school is expensive, and only a few companies help out their students with tuition beyond the pay the students receive during their work terms. I'm not sure GM even pays full tuition/books etc anymore like they used to. Kettering is offering a lot more scholarships and financial aid than they used to, but it is still quite expensive. I just checked their website, and tuition is now more than $25,000 a year for everyone (no breaks for in state students). Comparing that to a school like U of M, Kettering is really expensive if you're from Michigan, but a bit of a deal if you're from outside the state (10K in state/30K out of state).

I would definitely echo your recommendation of the school though. I had a great time there, got a great education and got many great oppurtunities because of the school.

Bob

 

[TStaples]

Ataloss,

Good info. Things have really changed. It was $600/semester in 1982, and about $2400/semester in 1987, as the GM subsidies were being reduced over time. As much as I didn't care for Flint, it was a great education. I like to tell people that GMI teaches you all of the same stuff as any other good engineering school. The difference is that you have to cram 4 years of college into 2.5 years of time, so your work load is much higher per semester. (My worst semester was 26 credit hours! Ouch! I did the EE suicide route, with an effective minor in ME.)

GMI (Kettering) is excellent prep, as it teaches you to juggle conflicting time demands, or overload, effectively. If you can't manage your time, you won't survive the gauntlet that is/was GMI. It's great prep for the "real world."

Good luck to Carpassion no matter his academic path!

-Tony Staples

http://www.tscombustion.com

 

[RossABQ]

My father (an ME, valedictorian at Univ. of Ill/Champaign in '52) gave me this advice: go to school where you want to work (geographically speaking). Industrial companies typically have a strong relationship with the faculty at ME schools, and the prof's can get you into doors at those companies that you wouldn't even know about otherwise.

I lived in Illinois, applied and was accepted at Purdue, but the $2,000/year (not semester!) out-of-state tuition caused me to "settle" for Univ. of Ill. I have never regretted it. Caterpillar, Ford, John Deere, IH, many other heavy hitters were always around looking for talent. I had a job giving relevant experience every summer and had offers before I graduated.

 

[plasgears]

I had a co-op student from Kettering, and it was a good experience overall for everbody. It was in seat actuation motors, and the student made a difference. He had a job waiting for him after grad. Curiously, I had a visit from the faculty advisor at Kettering. I guess he was making a cursory visit to all co-op plants.

 

[GMIracing]

Curiously, I had a visit from the faculty advisor at Kettering. I guess he was making a cursory visit to all co-op plants.[/quote

This shouldn't be a cursory visit, it is a core part of the thesis program, of which the student is paying for. Today, this is about $3160 combined for the two thesis terms, so one would hope that the faculty advisor can find a little time to visit, in detail, the place where the co-op is completing the theoretical thesis research.