House proposed renovation

[hoshang]

Hi
please find the attached files. This is an existing house. The owner wants to make some renovations. Before in the links denote to before renovation, while after denotes to after renovation. I proposed the W or I section displayed in green in the attachments to be placed under the the lower and upper slabs. The house is a two story load bearing masonry wall, and RC slabs. Does my proposed solution make sense? Are there any considerations one should be aware of? Are there any other solutions available? The slab beyond the proposed steel sections are 1.8m. Are there any solutions to account for these slabs?

 

[hoshang]

These images are before renovation

 

[hoshang]

These images would be after renovation

 

[hoshang]

Hi
Any help would be highly appreciated.

 

[hoshang]

Let me clarify OP better.
Overview: I am seeking advice regarding renovations for an existing two-story house with load-bearing masonry walls and reinforced concrete slabs.

Details: The owner intends to make some renovations. The attached files show the current layout (marked as "before") and my proposed changes (marked as "after"). I suggest using W or I sections, highlighted in green in the attachments, to support the lower and upper slabs.

Questions:

1. Does my proposed solution seem appropriate?
2. Are there specific considerations I should keep in mind?
3. Are there alternative solutions available for the beams?
4. The slab extends 1.8 meters beyond the proposed steel sections; what solutions might address this?

 

[ChorasDen]

1. Does my proposed solution seem appropriate?
   1. I don't know, what work have you performed to determine if your solution is appropriate or not?
2. Are there specific considerations I should keep in mind?
   1. Typically, yes shoring, installation detailing, and creep effects immediately come to mind, I'm certain there are many more things that also must be considered.
3. Are there alternative solutions available for the beams?
   1. Nearly always, but you should be working with the client to determine what the performance expectations are, what material best achieves those requirements and fits into the available space, and meets the project budget.
4. The slab extends 1.8 meters beyond the proposed steel sections; what solutions might address this?
   1. What are the predicted performance characteristics of the slab under the proposed solution, are you exceeding the nominal strength of the slab and reinforcement with this change in bearing? What have you considered for the getting the slab to the required performance level based on this design change?

Ask yourself this, are you truly in a position to provide a sufficient, safe, and adequate design for this project, or should someone more experienced be in control of these modifications? Perhaps you pay someone local to perform the design, and have you work alongside so that you learn from them as they work through the design.

 

[hoshang]

ChorasDen said:​

Nearly always, but you should be working with the client to determine what the performance expectations are, what material best achieves those requirements and fits into the available space, and meets the project budget.

Suppose my suggestion is valid,
1- if there are RC beams over masonry wall running transversely at both ends of the proposed W or I steel sections, how would the steel section be connected to these RC beams?
2- otherwise, in case RC beams are not existing running transversely to proposed W or I steel sections (i.e. only masonry walls are existing running transversely to proposed W or I steel sections), how would the steel section be connected to these masonry walls?
3- proposing the green steel sections as the solution, would running steel beams transversely to proposed green ones be a solution to support the slab that extends 1.8 meters beyond the proposed green steel sections?

ChorasDen said:​

Nearly always

If you have other solutions rather than mine, can you elaborate on it?

 

[hoshang]

Hi all,
Any help would be highly appreciated

 

[hoshang]

Am I asking some thing very difficult to be replied?

 

[HDStructural]

This is not too difficult, the problem appears too simple and it seems that you need to do more analysis and field investigation as there are too many unknowns. As ChorasDen noted, it was suggested that you hire someone else to do this work so that you can learn alongside them.

I would guess that is why people are not responding.

With that said, your solution depends on the floor framing and load bearing elements. If the slab spans east west from exterior wall to exterior wall, you may not need to add any beam at all. That also would depend on the lateral analysis of the structure.

There are many ways to attach a steel beam to an existing masonry wall. You could demo out a pocket in the wall and place the beam in that to bear on the wall, or you could make an end plate connection or double angle connection that is post installed into the masonry wall. The first option is likely the more reliable option.

 

[ANE91]

I don't see any actual structural engineering in what you've posted. I only see designs of floor plans with no substantiating analysis or reference to any prescriptive design provisions. I don't see any detailing.

If your jurisdiction requires signed/sealed drawings, then hire a structural engineer. If not, then crack open whatever prescription applies in your country (it's the IRC in the US) and check every element for compliance.

 

[hoshang]

HDStructural said:​

There are many ways to attach a steel beam to an existing masonry wall. You could demo out a pocket in the wall and place the beam in that to bear on the wall, or you could make an end plate connection or double angle connection that is post installed into the masonry wall. The first option is likely the more reliable option.

In your phrase: or you could make an end plate connection or double angle connection that is post installed into the masonry wall. is this applicable if it wasn't masonry wall, rather if it were an RC beam?

ANE91 said: I don't see any detailing.​

I'm open to any inquiry you post.

 

[hoshang]

HDStructural said: or you could make an end plate connection or double angle connection that is post installed into the masonry wall.​

Can you elaborate more on this, especially the end plate connection option?

 

[HDStructural]

You could attach a steel beam to the side of a concrete beam using either of the options stated above, yes. You may want to use a double angle connection as you can limit the moment transferred through the connection with slotted holes. You can't do that as easily with an end plate connection.

The end plate connection is where you weld a plate to the end of the beam web. This plate is flush with the wall and you bolt the plate to the wall.

 

[HDStructural]

All of this needs to be calc'd out though. It isn't a simple detail that can be applied without running the numbers and understanding how the connection will act.

 

[hoshang]

HDStructural said:​

The end plate connection is where you weld a plate to the end of the beam web. This plate is flush with the wall and you bolt the plate to the wall.

You mean the upper bolts would be inside the flanges since the upper flange would be flush with the floor slab and there wouldn't be a clearance for bolting outside the flanges. Am I right?

 

[hoshang]

Does my query make sense?

 

[dold]

Does my query make sense?

Not really. (<<Talking about the entire thread here) What is the purpose of the beam? The before and after floor plans look pretty much identical.

 

[phamENG]

Does my query make sense?

Perfect sense. Now, please hire a structural engineer to answer it for you. This looks to be a very basic and straightforward renovation job. Any engineer with the experience necessary to ethically take this on can answer it. The fact that you can't means you either shouldn't be doing this, or you should be discussing it more closely with your supervisor. If you're struggling with a specific part of the design, we'll all be happy to help. But "hey, internet, is this how I should start?" is not going to get you any traction.