How did you compile your detail library and how do you learn detailing for other unfamiliar sectors? 23

[LockeBT]

Detail library: Was it through previous jobs? From scratch? And more as you went along?

Detailing: Say your niche/specialty is primarily tilt-up. However you want to get your feet wet with wood-framed over podium projects, you are able to perform all the calcs but how do you go about detailing it? I'm sure you know the basics but that's not enough.

 

[dik]

Mostly from my own work, but have accumulated hundreds of details from other work. Log it into a Masterformat type of directory.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[LockeBT]

dik

What's your experience when you're doing a project that you're unfamiliar with detail-wise? Concrete is one of my stronger materials yet there's no way for me to learn how to detail post-tension without looking at another project.

Edit: didn't see your picture when I was typing this reply. Curious what's in the EngTips folder? Memes?

 

[dik]

I haven't done a major concrete project for years. If I were to to one, I would take a look at the type of framing, flat plate, flat slab (w/drops), or whatever and then check to see how the details compare to what is currently being done. It's been decades since my last post-tensioned project (a parkade in New York) that I consulted on and would check with current practice. I would then draw or copy details to suit the work. My work for the last several years has been is steel and the problem is that even with my organisation (and I'm reasonably organised) and 30 years of drawings (AutoCAD 3.15, if memory serves), it's occasionally hard to find a detail that your looking for... See rough list of my drawings below:

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[TLHS]

dik, I wish I were a tenth as organized as you are.

 

[dik]

...it's myth.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[kissymoose]

Networking. Getting buddy buddy with either engineers who are able to share or better yet contractors who not only can provide drawings from previous jobs but opinions about constructability. That's one major helpful route, another is learning how to find publicly available drawings. Some jurisdictions publish everything, others nothing.

 

[KootK]

1) Anyone who claims to have developed their standard details library from scratch (other than the CAD work), is shameless liar.

2) Starting work in a new sector without some existing drawings to look at is nuts. Yeah, concrete is concrete and steel is steel but the little nuances of detailing will kill you without some precedent to review.

3) In addition to the other good sources mentioned previously, trade associations can be helpful sources of detailing information.

 

[dik]

Sorry Kootk, you're wrong! I've got hundreds that I developed from 'scratch'... and any time they were modified, they became a new detail. When I first started engineering, it was common to draft your own projects. This is some of my stuff from '74.

and this is some of my stuff from a couple of years back:

and these are some of my timberframe details (I have 8 or 10 sheets like this for timberframe alone):

All the details are 'tucked away' for use on a future project.

I have similar details for wood, concrete and steel... nearly all done from scratch.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[KootK]

Sorry Kootk, you're wrong! I've got hundreds that I developed from 'scratch'... and any time they were modified, they became a new detail.

I'm not wrong. I didn't mean to suggest that nobody ever creates a new detail and makes it a standard in their library. Obviously we all do that. What I was getting at is that the intellectual content of most of the details in anyone's library was garnered from the work of mentors, past employers, the drawings of other firms and, most importantly, our historical predecessors. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants and most of this stuff is public domain as far as I'm concerned.

 

[dik]

That's trivial (trivial in the classic sense) and meaningless... everything you know is a consequence of something you've come across at some time earlier... even if it's brushing your teeth.

I should have added that a lot of stuff that I've done and quite a few details have resulted from unique conditions where basic principles are used.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[KootK]

I feel that it's quite germane to anyone attempting to build their own library and wondering about the ethical implications of borrowing from the work others. Some of my details are the result of the creative synthesis of information from a number of sources and are, thus, "my own" in a meaningful way. Many other of my details are really regurgitations of the clever work of others that has gradually become the defacto industry standard.

I think it rather ungentlemanly to be referring to anyone's contributions here as "trivial and meaningless".

 

[phamENG]

dik - have to disagree with you there, at least in part. I agree that nearly everything we do above our base functions of breathing, eating, drinking, sleeping, and other things that shouldn't be discussed in polite company is based on something learned from somebody else (and even some of those things are learned...). But for an engineer that finds themselves alone for one reason or another and doesn't understand copyright law...it can be a daunting and uncomfortable place to be. You think that all of these details you've seen or may even have available to you in references are "somebody else's property" and to copy them would be somehow illegal. To KootK's point...balderdash! The vast majority of them are, as he said, public domain and simply "the way it's done." There are exceptions - SidePlate, for instance. But most firms don't have patented details in their libraries.

So yeah, if you happen to copy the entirety of your firm's typical detail library the morning before you put in your two weeks....be careful. You'll probably want to at least redraw them. But the contents themselves probably came from another firm, and another firm before that.

To the OP - be careful when you find yourself in this situation. You say you can do all the calculations, but I actually find that many of the calculations follow the detailing. I like to do a rough detail of how it'll come together first, and then do my calcs based on that and iterate. I've found that forcing the detailing to follow the calcs is the fastest way to end up with constructability problems. After all, a detail is just a picture of how the pieces fit together. You should be leery of designing something if you don't know how it's going to go together.

 

[LockeBT]

phamENG,

Thanks for the advice. I do have a follow up question. Since the details should come first and your calcs are catered to those details, how do you go about developing them first, especially if you are unfamiliar with them? Most textbooks have very general details that are nowhere near the level of what we have on our plans.

It is mentioned that I should network but how do I even approach another engineer or another firm and ask something along the line of "hey teach me how to detail for [insert a niche sector] so I can compete with you".

KootK is dead-on, at least for me. I learned detailing from my previous employers and redrew them to "make them my own". They are tweaked/reorganized to how I want to convey the info and updated to meet current codes but for the most part the core concepts are taken (I guess learned?) from someone else.

You can have an brilliant engineer with 20 year experience in concrete buildings (say parking structures) and if you ask him to detail a wood-framed over podium or even a 2-story hip-roof residential building and he'll probably have to copy it elsewhere.

 

[dik]

pham, I disagree again: There's no difference in cognitive learning applied to engineering or applied to washing your face. It's the same life skill... just a different level... if everything were a copy of something earlier, the human race would not have progressed as it has. It's taking something and using cognitive skills to take it to a different level... aka, something new.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[dik]

probably... but, not always.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

LockeBT - if you're talking about just other materials you're up a creek. Nobody is going to teach you wood framing design so you can compete with them. If you're talking about truly niche and specialist fields, it's a little easier - you can hire a post tensioning expert to consult on a project. They help you heavily on the first couple of projects, and then as time goes on and you learn more from them, you get to where you can do just about all of it. Maybe you keep pushing until you're an expert, or maybe you push until you feel comfortable delegating the final aspects of it to a specialty contractor.

If you came from a firm that only did concrete structures, I'm not going to say you're stuck doing only concrete, but pretty close. This is where understanding career paths from the time you're a freshman in college is really helpful - a lot of people pigeonhole themselves early on with no good way out.

I'd suggest this: find a really good course on the topic. Maybe look for some 500 or 600 level courses offered online through a university. It varies from school to school, but they may let you enroll in a single course without seeking a degree. Buy some good books. For wood design, Breyer's book is typically held up as the best out there. There are other good resources as well. Then, find a contractor that you know and trust and trusts you. Explain to them that you're trying to expand your practice and you'd like to observe some crews working. Spend some days on the jobsite. Sketch what you see. Also, read the code. A lot of my wood details are based on the details in the prescriptive code, and I modify them to suit engineered applications. That way, the contractor is still building roughly what they're used to, but with some minor enhancements as needed.

Now, once you think you've mastered it, do a full design of a building with drawings. Preferably not a real building. Once you think it's completely done, contact a firm outside of your immediate region that does third party/peer reviews and pay them to review it. See what comes back. Maybe have a few firms do the review so you can get a good cross section of opinions.

 

[phamENG]

dik - I could be wrong, but I don't think we're disagreeing on the basis of knowledge and originality. I think the disagreement was on your statement that KootK's statement was trivial and meaningless. My point is that it's often good to remind people of the truth that it's been learned from somewhere else, and even though we may put a new spin on things the core of it is based on accumulated knowledge passed down through successive generations of engineers.

Or maybe I'm still off. If so, we can just agree to disagree.

 

[Enable]

I would concur with phamENG / KootK re: originality. IMHO I haven't come up with anything remotely unique in this profession, ever. Anytime I've thought I have come up with something great I invariably find that someone did it 50 years ago, and much better. It's absolutely wise / not-trivial to remind people of this; as a consultant there is an inherent tendency to develop a sense of intellectual arrogance given the great disparity between our clients and ourselves. It helps keep one in check to recall that the reality is we all (mere mortals) borrow our ideas.

That said, please for the love of that is holy redraw things! If you have the CAD file or not. As a contractor I often see drawings from firms where several details have clearly been copied from a PDF source and pasted into AutoCad....I mean, really? BTW I have seen this practice from some of the largest (and public) firms, so it's not just a small shop thing.

 

[dik]

I'm well aware of that, but because that's the case for nearly everything, it is a meaningless statement that does not contribute. I pride myself on my integrity and to use such a trivial response is improper.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik