How important is having SEM/EDS capability in a metallurgical lab? 2

[coreman73]

I am the manager of a metallurgical lab for a large handtool manufacturer. It is the only lab the company currently has and we service all 6 of our plants for a wide variety of job requests including: failure analysis, raw material auditing (surface quality check, mechanical properties, coating weight, etc.), bulk chemical analysis, microhardness/hardness testing, corrosion testing (water fog and salt spray), plating analysis (composition, thickness, etc.), metallographic evaluation (structure, etc.). We work with low carbon alloy steels, stainless steels, tool steels, aluminum alloys and powdered metallurgy samples. Periodically, we receive welded samples as well for analysis of weld integrity.

Our microscopes consist of a Zeiss Axiovert 200MAT light microscope with max magnification of 2500x and a stereoscope with max magnification 50x.

I am considering submitting a proposal to my bosses hopefully leading to the eventual purchase of an SEM with EDS. Based on the various requests and array of testing techniques mentioned above, I was wondering if I could get some help on what strong selling points I could add to this proposal. What are some other important uses the SEM/EDS could deliver? Obviously, failure analysis would be greatly assisted by the SEM and the EDS would be used a lot for the plating analyses.

At this time, we are sending lots of samples out for EDS. Most of the failure analysis is done in-house using the equipment we have but the conclusions would clearly be more accurate with the aid of SEM. Occasionally, we have to send samples to an outside lab for SEM and it's not cheap.

Due to cost, I'm considering either a Hitachi TM-1000 or TM-3000 both with EDS capability.

I would really appreciate any advice.
Thank you.

 

[salmon2]

When I read your first paragraph I was saying to my self you guys are really well equipped you almost can do anything in house. Yes all I can think of is eds capability for inclusions and you have considered that. Not only money concern with outsource eds, but also response time. With a sem/eds in house you have far more freedom to do a better analysis. To me this is the last patch to your lab but don't say that just in case.

 

[TVP]

coreman73,

Based on this description, as well as your previous posts that I remember, I would say that an SEM is a "must have" piece of equipment for your lab. The depth of field provided by SEM just cannot be matched by optical microscopy, and even if you already have advanced optical microscopes that can stitch together multiple fields and multiple depths to create enhanced depth of field, the SEM allows for rapid sample adjustment that high magnification optical microscopy still cannot match. Another capability that you did not mention is particle analysis, which uses the EDS system to determine the composition of a range of particles, while properly mapping the size and size distribution. Here are a couple of links that show good examples of the technology:

http://www.bruker-axs.com/uploads/t...l/App_eds_05_small_particle_rev1_2_lowres.pdf

http://www.rjl-microanalytic.com/ExampleAnalysis.pdf

 

[IRstuff]

I think you'd need to consider its ROI and utilization as well. While turnaround time and outsource cost are indeed factors, your management may want to see that they're getting their money's worth. Given that a SEM generally requires some level of maintenance cost, that would need to be figured in.


Of course, one might counter-argue that many jobs are never attempted due to the cost and delay of the outsourcing.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[metengr]

Excellent point above from a business perspective.

 

[blacksmith37]

You need to find someone to dazzle management with the wonders of SEM w/ EDAX. As an engineer , I think it is a great tool. We had a good "dazzler" and got our first SEM in about 1968. We did some work for Chicago Police Dept (because so few machines were around). When ours was down for maintenance we got to use one at U of IL (off the books) and the results were dissapointing compared to ours. I mean, with good operator and maintenance, in-house results are better than commercial.
PS; we pretty much had all the optical equipment known to man.

 

[unclesyd]

One point not mentioned above is that SEM is almost indispensable in failure analysis. This especially true for detailing a fatigue failure. We have used an SEM more for this type analysis than EDS work.

We have three SEMS, A Joel, a Cambridge, and one who's name escapes me, all have EDS capability. You want have this problem but when the Joel was bought they used Metallurgical Work as 60% of the justification, Since we are a synthetic fiber plant we still have to get in line for seat time
We do have a reciprocal agreement with a location forensic lab to use the other SEMS.

 

[swall]

I have been in the situation as a lab manager where I had an SEM and didn't have one. In the cases where I did not have one, I had excellent access to contract labs for SEM work at reasonable prices. I would pay for the SEM time and the operator and I would conduct the fractographic analysis. The arrangement proved to be satisfactory to all parties involved. Another major factor to consider when contemplating a purchase of an SEM--who will be your operator, coreman73? If you end up doing it, the task takes time away from other work you could be doing. SEM's also require periodic maintenance, so add the price of an annual service contract to your dollar estimates for SEM purchase.

 

[EdStainless]

Before you jump in to SEM you need to go look at confocal optical scopes. They offer great depth of field at a large range of magnifications. Some of them will even do optical surface texture measurements (in real numbers).
Unless the EDS work is a major factor you might find that SEM isn't the ultimate tool.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

 

[coreman73]

I really appreciate the excellent responses from everyone. I've been so swamped I hadn't had the chance to even respond yet. It looks like I've got some things to consider now though. Thanks again!

 

[steelmtllrgst]

Coreman73-

For metal failure analysis it is also worthwhile to consider an R.J.Lee PSEM. It is a small SEM with EDS capability but at a MUCH better price than most other SEMs. Typically for failure analysis of metals you will not need 30,000X to identify the cause of failure. These units work really well up to about 3500X, and I have seen the service techicians make adjustements to get well beyond that - but at least in the steel failure analyses I have done we don't need to be much over 2000X in most cases.

The lower price makes it much easier to justify...

 

[TVP]

steelmtllrgst,

FYI, the Hitachi TM-1000/3000 machines that coreman73 referenced in the OP are similar to the R.J. Lee PSEM (now called Aspex) concept, i.e. simpler platform, less expensive to operate, etc. Hitachi uses the term "tabletop microscope" to differentiate this product line from its higher performance SEMs (variable pressure, field emission, etc.).

 

[Guest102023]

Considering the turnover you are dealing with, you need an SEM, especially if there is a high proportion of fracture failures.

HOWEVER, I have seen SEMs routinely (over)used by metallurgists who use it as a crutch, and by managers who want to pump up invoices. I would even say the failure analyst who relies excessively on the SEM has questionable competence.

A good failure analyst in most cases will use the SEM when there is still doubt about a fracture, or when details about fatigue (i.e., striations) are important to the investigation.

Your investment won't end with the equipment purchase. You need a trained operator/analyst on staff. Because the SEM does not magically spit out the answer to every question.

 

[swall]

Yes, brimstoner, exellent point about using SEM as a crutch. I had to constantly remind my guys about doing a good visual examination of the fracture, then doing SEM to support what they found on visual. I also had to push them to not ignore the data that metallography can provide.

 

[coreman73]

Brimstoner,

That is very true about one maybe using the SEM as a crutch. In my situation, I feel that I've done enough failure analyses and have had enough exposure to reaching conclusions without an SEM for long enough that I'd only be using it to remove any remaining doubts (the presence of fatigue striations you mention).

Also, the training would be an extra expense. I've had limited exposure but would need much more to feel confident.

Blacksmith37,
Yes, I do need to find someone to dazzle my bosses! Hopefully, the sales rep I eventually have come to the lab is convincing enough. Of course, with the economy currently going down the toilet it may take more than just the right sales pitch.

 

[IRstuff]

I don't want to be the party pooper, but you still need to make the business case. You say you have "lots" of EDS, but how much is that, really?

Is the volume sufficient to occupy a SEM/EDS for even one shift? Are you getting delays in analysis from the outside vendor due to the high volume? Will your projected cost of outside services over the next 5 or 10 yrs exceed the price of a SEM? Is even the normal delay for an outside analysis too long? How much money is lost because of the turnaround delays for outside services? Is that lost money more than the price of a SEM? If you can come up with plausible answers to these questions that confirm your business case, you'd be in much better negotiating position.

While I would be wowed with a SEM saleman's pitch, I'm not sure that your management would be as well, unless you can talk dollars and hours as well.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[coreman73]

IRstuff,

Those are excellent questions and I will work on putting together some numbers as part of the proposal. I really hadn't gotten that far yet as I'm just thinking of all the possible benefits adding an SEM to this lab might bring. But yes, like always, at the end of the day it's all about money.