How much am I worth? 4

[CPENG78]

With the economic situation that the whole country is going through and our field for that matter, I have come to ask myself several questions regarding what my income should be as a project engineer. In no way do I want to appear greedy or not thankful for actually having a job in this current economic chaos.

So here is my background. I graduated with a BS degree in civil engineering with an emphasis on structures and a few classes in transportation. In my last two years of finishing up for my degree I acquired structural engineering experience in timber, light gauge steel and concrete structures with a small private company. I then went on to go into land development where I gained experience in general civil design for four years. The experience came in all levels of design from 100 to 2000 home private subdivisions. My experience came through not only the technical side but also about a year and half of project management experience including the entitlement process and management of a design group made up of three drafters and three engineers including myself. So then due to the economic situation I was laid off and was out of work for two weeks before finding a job with a new company. I went on to start work with the new company as a project engineer in land developement but the projects were more on the public works sector. I did this for 5 months and then laid off again since the workload just died. I went unemployed for 3 months before I found the current job as a project engineer. Unfortunately the current company is now suffering from the economic situation as well and has had to do major cuts to hours available for work. Yes, in all job situations I have been hired at an hourly rate.

So I find myself asking several questions. In an average to good economy what would be the fair market value for someone with my experience? What is the value of my experience in the current economy? Is there a place such as a website that someone recommends where I can enter my experience and get what my hourly rate or what my salary should be?

Without going into too much personal detail that some of you may not feel confortable discussing, what is the hourly rate or salary that your respective companies offer?

Once again, even with the cut in hours I am thankful to have a job but I am curious of what I "should" ask for should I find myself in the situation of searching once again. By the way, because I know there are geographic differences when it comes to salary, I am in California and will be sitting in for the PE exam this April.

Thank you for your input.

 

[ctopher]

I don't know the civil arena, but my guess would be in the $70k area? At least until you have your PE. I don't see years of experience or your age.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08; CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[CPENG78]

Chris,
I had two years of structural engineering experience before I graduated. Then after graduation I went on to a different company where I had 4 years of land development experience in private home subdivions; out of these four years there was about a year and half in project management. Followed by 5 months of land developement in the public works sector. Then back to land development in the private project side for the last two months. I'm 30 years old but how much does my actual age matter? I would think that experience and expertise would be valuable whether you are 30 or 60.

I take full responsibility for having the experience that I have and not having my PE yet, I am working on it. But I do feel like sort of an "overqualified engineer" without the PE title next my name. Does that make sense? I mean, I feel as if I'm seen differently because I don't have the title next to my name. I'm not saying that I shouldn't but just wondering how much the lack of it is actually hurting my chances.

 

[ajack1]

The simple answer is the same as everyone else, what someone is prepared to pay you, nothing else matters.

 

[JAE]

General estimates for BS degree (based on midwest consulting engineering)

Starting salary: $44k to $50k
After PE: $50k to $56k
After 6 yrs total experience: $56k to $68k
Dept. Head: $72k to $90k

Just a stab at it. I'm sure it varies all over the US (and world). With the economy, these numbers could be reduced a bit, I'm sure.

But I agree with ajack1. It's really what someone will pay you.

 

[ctopher]

I agree with the others.

Also, unfortunately it does make a difference to some extent on your age. Legally the employer can not base it on your age, but they do.

It varies geographically. More employers these days are also using a point system. Software determines your experience and education and rates you with points among other applicants.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08; CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ScottyUK]

ajack1,

That sounds like an employer's perspective.

In my industry - power generation - there's a real shortage of experienced people and the question is still "What are you prepared to work for?" rather than "What someone is prepared to pay you". I think we're one of very few industries not being hurt too much by the financial crisis - it's a nice feeling to have recruiters ringing me and to be turning down work.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[655321]

In the Civil Engineering world, PE Certification/Licensing is enormously important. So Yes, you are being seen differently (as in not worth as much)without it. Its just the way it is.

For specific numbers it's hard to give you a better answer then JAE did. But, I have found lots of really good information on salary sites, spend $15 bucks or so on one. Recently I was able to compare the info from those to a wage survey my company participated in from an industry group. They were pretty to close.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking around to find out what your worth, even in down times!! if more of us did it we'd all be making more money.

 

[CPENG78]

Thank you everyone for your input so far. The reason my questions began to develop was because it seems like I may have to file for unemployment benefits yet again (This will be the third time in less than a year) and so I went to the California web site to obtain info on unemployment benefits and I came across some spreadsheets that are available for free to download with average salaries for almost all occupations. If I read the spreadsheet correctly, the mean average salary for a civil engineer in ca was 83k at the end of 1st quarter of 2008. That is the latest info. The income falls between the low of 66k and a high of 97k. I would imagine that the low 66k would be for a new grad and the high 97k would be for a department head. I came here to ask my questions since the data is slighltly old and the 1st quarter of 2008 was not as bad as the 1st quarter of 2009 has turn out to be, ecnomywise.

In response to 655321's comment, I completely understand how the PE is seen in our ce world. On a different note a few months back or maybe even longer I saw a report on one of those TV shows like 20/20 where they discussed how employees were encouraged how not to discuss their salaries. This allows the employer to drive and keep wages down. It is the inability to see or know what the co worker in the office or cubicle over is making that allows companies to pay less. In fact, a company out of New York I believe, tried something quite new where everyone knew each other's salaries and it turn out to be beneficial for both employee and employer. Everyone knew what the next person made and based on that, it pushed performance and efficiency within the company --- good for the company and at the same time it set the tone for what you need to do in order to get to where you want salarywise. No secrets and no questions about why the guy that does less work may be getting payed more. With efficiency came higher company revenue which allow better salaries for everyone.

I found the report/story quite interesting. Now that company was not paying everyone the same rate but like I said there were no secrets as to why someone got payed what he/she got payed. So what's everyone's opinion on this? I for one, tend to keep my salary personal not because that is what industry pushes me to do but because its part of my personal life and who knows maybe to some extent it would make me think of "How much am I worth?" even more than I want to.

 

[JAE]

The trouble with open salary data in a single firm is that in some firms, the disciplines are different (i.e. an A/E firm with structural, civil, mechanical, electrical, etc.).

And each discipline has its own pay scale and varies considerably due to different markets, supply and demand of particular engineering types, and volume of work.

So I might think I should get paid more than some guy in the next cubicle due to my own perceived superiority in experience or talent. But they might get paid more due to the marketplace of their discipline compared to mine.

 

[abusementpark]

JAE,

I'm in the South and those numbers seem very low. I would have though Midwest and South would be similar in standard of living adjustments and what not.

How much do you think those numbers increase with an MS??

 

[JAE]

abusementpark - yes - these were my guesses based on B.S. degree. Usually in structural engineering we'd look at M.S. degree - which tends to be a bit higher.

Also, I tapered them down a bit due to the economy right now. One example would be a seasoned department head, with M.S. degree - $90k to $110k.

 

[cvg]

this has been discussed many times before - do a search in the forums..., but don't forget to add all the benefits which must be considered as part of the entire "compensation package" - such as
insurance
vacation days
sick day policy
paid holidays
flex time
401K / matching contributions
bonuses
overtime compensation
expected working hours
company cell phone
company car or allowance
company credit card
local cost of living
etc.
etc.

 

[CPENG78]

JAE,
I do see how one can start questioning what the other person is making and yet they may be more "valuable" because the supply of his/her expertise may be be lower. I do remember that the company on the TV story was a small company and it sounded like what they emphasized was the structure of how everyone was paid rather than having a "black box" that spit out numbers to each employee and no one understood how one person got payed to another. Like everyhting else, it has its pros and cons.

On another note, I have found that having a Masters is seeked in the Structural field by employers but does anyone know how its seen in other fields like general civil or others? I have been thinking about going back to school and getting a masters but I wonder if in this ecnomomy, would it have the same effect as having the PE license? Meaning would it allow me or give me a better chance at keeping my job rather than seeing an actual raise in salary? Your thoughts...

 

[CPENG78]

CVG,
Yes I do consider other benefits as part of the pay, but at least in the companies that I have applied to in the past and/or have worked the benefit package has remained about the same with minor differences here and there. That is why my question dealt more with the pay rate. I suppose if we really wanted to, we could add the cost of all benefits to the pay rate and come out with some effective pay rate to compare one company to another.

I do understand why the benefits must be included, they are not cheap and when a company makes an offer it will include those benefits in the offer letter. However one of the companies that I dealt with in the past not only gave me the offer letter but also a spreadsheet of the pay rate plus all benefits adding up to my annual salary. No problem with that, however in the calculations they included an assumed amount (2 to 5 hours) of overtime pay per week which they claimed it was common amongst all their employees. The way I saw it and I still see it, they were only trying inflate the pay rate + benefit total amount they were giving me per year. Overtime pay rate and payment procedure should be explained with the offer letter but it should not be included as an amount of your total yearly salary. By the way, I did ended up working for the company for 5 months, and in that time I probably worked about 10 hours of overtime. It wasn't by choice, there was just no work.

 

[debodine]

CPENG78:

I agree with you that their "inflation" of the rate by assuming "X" amount of overtime was an attempt at deceit. Companies only use overtime when they have the work to justify it, and assuming continuous overtime to be available is either an admission they won't staff properly or an attempt at fooling you into believing your income will be more than reality. Of course some companies actually do end up with more work than anticipated and therefore open the overtime for extended periods, but you are right to indicate a prospective employee should never count on that income as part of their decision.

 

[IAAWVU05]

OP: Some governments go by standard salary tables. You can google this and see how much you're worth (hint: in the US, use 07 for a BS, 09 for a MS). Add or subtract up to $10k depending on a company's size and quality. If you find yourself making to little, start looking for another job because you'll never be payed what you're worth at that company.

 

[plasgears]

Engineers are very adaptable to various industries because of analytical bent.

Got a landscape designer distant learning diploma and did jobs on the side seasonally. I parlayed that into an application for a landscape arch position in Washington, DC, and I got a job offer. Turned it down. My son is now a pro in that field.

Another change was to the editorial staff of an engineering magazine on the basis of my Toastmaster training. In the first year I got three award winning articles. This magazine had a volunteer readers rating system. The December issue had all the winning articles for the year.

My career shifts were from aviation engine design, to plant engineering, to editorial, to elect motor design. A side job to my motor design career was armored cars. The boss said that I could do anything, so he asked me to design a safe cigarette, for which I wrote a patent. It raised eyebrows in Richmond. It was sold for a handsome profit. We also built the first cigarette plant in the mideast gulf states.

Engineers can do anything.