How much involvement is necessary to be "in responsible charge"? 1

[pir8engineer]

I work at a structural engineering firm in the United States. We are looking to partner with a Canadian firm. As I understand it, the Canadian firm would do the project, and all the calculations and design. They just want us to sign and seal it.
This feels sketchy to me. My research into what being "in responsible charge" means suggests that we need to have been involved in a decision-making role in the project from the word go. So my question is this: Is there an amount of review/redoing calculations/peer reviewing that would allow us to sign and seal the drawings? Or do we need to have been involved from the beginning?

Thanks!

 

[271828]

I like the way these guys put it:

Responsible Charge | National Society of Professional Engineers

Position Statement: It is the position of the National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE) that engineering should be performed by a professional engineer in responsible charge of the work. Background:The NCEES model law defines “Responsible Charge” as the direct control and personal...

www.nspe.org

 

[JStephen]

Laws vary from state to state and time to time. Some states have laws/rules that specifically allow what you describe, others more or less prohibit it. If it's just one project, look up the laws in the state in question and see just exactly what they say. Perusing the disciplinary actions can sometimes be informative also.

 

[JAE]

Your direct mandate as an engineer in the US is to protect the safety and welfare of the public.

To do that, in your current situation, I would suggest you would need to perform most all of the calculations independently as though you were the EOR to begin with.
This idea of "reviewing" another's work by scanning through their details and calcs isn't "responsible charge" in any US State that I'm aware of.

This means a significant amount of time to develop confidence that what you are signing and stamping will be safe.
Not a quick one hour review.

 

[RWW0002]

I agree with JAE on independent calculations/validation. Also, it may be good to establish early on that any drawings are being completed under your care. These definitions/policies vary from state to state (and are sometimes interpreted a variety of ways - search this forum for several discussions on similar topics), but establishing that you have control of the drawings themselves- through review comments, additional details needed, etc.- would be a good idea and is a good idea in general. Most states have specific rules on this kind of thing in order to protect the public. Some have some more rigorous "anti plan-stamping" rules that go quite a bit farther to protect the profession itself from outside competition. I am in favor of the former, less so of the latter.. but there are others on here who reasonably disagree

Either way, make sure you are doing your due diligence, and maybe do some research specific to your state before you wade too far into this one.

Good luck!

 

[SWComposites]

where is the project physically located? US or Canada?

 

[Aesur]

Your direct mandate as an engineer in the US is to protect the safety and welfare of the public.

To do that, in your current situation, I would suggest you would need to perform most all of the calculations independently as though you were the EOR to begin with.
This idea of "reviewing" another's work by scanning through their details and calcs isn't "responsible charge" in any US State that I'm aware of.

This means a significant amount of time to develop confidence that what you are signing and stamping will be safe.
Not a quick one hour review.

This implies that the rubber stamping done in the truss and i-joist community is technically not allowed..

 

[JAE]

This implies that the rubber stamping done in the truss and i-joist community is technically not allowed..

Yes it does.

 

[Smoulder]

Same involvement as if doing design in house. Just swap in Canadians for amything you wouldn't do personally.

 

[JStephen]

This is an example from the Louisiana laws and rules:

"No licensee shall affix his/her seal or signature to reports,
plats, sketches, working drawings, specifications, design
calculations, or other engineering . . . documents
developed by others not under his/her responsible charge
and not subject to the authority of that licensee, except:
(a). in the case of an individual licensee checking the
work of and taking the professional responsibility for
an out-of-state individual licensee, the Louisiana
licensee shall completely check and have responsible
charge of the design. Such responsible charge shall
include possession of the sealed, signed and dated
reproducible construction drawings, with complete
sealed, signed and dated design calculations
indicating all changes in design;..."

My impression is that this practice/provision used to be more common than it is now and is gradually being outlawed.
But this is why I say to check those rules. In a lot of states, they make very plain that this kind of arrangement is not allowed.
If you're looking at a blanket arrangement for all states, generally that wouldn't work. But if it's a specific item in a specific state, check those rules.
Also, note that the arrangement above would be pretty workable for simple work, and a lot less workable for any kind of complex project.