How to get non-engineers to understand what an engineer knows? 22

[CheckThePlug]

Hello,

I've had a problem the past few months at my new job. I am the only mechanical engineer on staff at a product development department that is part of a larger service department, yet my bosses, etc. never seem to want to listen to what I say about matters of mechanical function. It's almost as if they think I have a degree in Solidworks drafting. When I worked in the oilfield, when an engineer spoke, everyone listened, but here, they treat me like I don't know anything and will run anything I say past the service techs and side with them if they say something different. How do I get people to understand the intimate mechanical understanding a mechanical engineer has without making people belligerent or defensive and just ultimately make come off as an egomaniac? It's very frustrating for someone to say something objectively wrong in contrast to what I'm saying and then their response is the one taken as fact.

 

[ctopher]

Understanding SolidWorks drafting and understanding engineering are not the same.

When you explain something that engineering related, have proof available to back you (text books, standards, etc).

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

Be patient! You will have to prove you know what you are talking about. I don't mean this derogatorily, but just because you have a ME degree doesn't mean you are a good engineer. It means you have passed the ME exam. The service techs have probably proven themselves over time (or hidden their mistakes) and are trusted. You will have to earn that same trust.

Just point out the potential problems (preferably in writing, email, Skype, etc) and if they don't accept your suggestion, bite your tongue and allow time to prove you correct.

 

[MikeHalloran]

DO NOT argue with stupid people.
DO NOT attempt to educate them.
They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

PD as a subset of Service? That's completely wrong.

Quietly make your recommendations in accord with the engineering principles you know to be true. Write them down; keep a log or a chron file. When you are overruled, quietly predict the results, then stop talking, do as you are told, and let things unfold.

Eventually, their most perceptive manager will realize that you are able to predict the future, and will come to regard you as a God.

Then he will get his ass fired for gross competence.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[drawoh]

CheckThePlug,

Been there, done that.

The problem with mechanical is that everyone figures they understand plates and screws and gears and stuff. At my site, they also think they understand heat conduction and fluid mechanics. If someone is designing an electrical circuit or writing software, the schematics and code are arcane crap that nobody understands unless they are trained, and they have several days or weeks to closely study it.

My big experience was being sent out for UNIX administration training. At the end of it, I was left on my own to figure out my part of the UNIX network. I could not get guidance or supervision no matter how badly I wanted it. My two weeks of training made me a god. When I got back to mechanical design, my three year diploma and fifteen years of experience still counted for very little.

Part of your problem is office politics. People are in control of stuff. Increased authority for you means less authority for them.

You need to watch for the opportunity where you can take control of someting, and use your superior expertise to do a better job than people are used to. When it comes up, make sure you do a better job.

A huge part of the problem with design is understanding the requirements. Most of us mechies do not operate in primarily mechanical environments. We integrate the stuff being done by all the other departments. This means that at best, we are part of a team. Team players have good communication skills.

Consider the near certainty that, while your co-workers do not understand mechanical as well as you do, they do understand the requirement, and they know they will have to work with whatever it is you do. If they think you are not paying attention, they will make sure you are payting attention.

JHG

 

[casseopeia]

Brain transplant


"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[ctopher]

"Abby-something..."

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[CheckThePlug]

Yeah, this is about what I figured. I thought about the textbook thing, and I may in fact order a set since you can get old editions for less than $10 shipped from Half (website). One big problem is my age. Many people here (especially the management) are 40/50/60+ years old, which means they are both detached from modern education and technology as well as coming from a time where everything was learned on the job by listening to elders, thus they never want to accept that I could possibly know more than them about a given area. I know the "sit back and let it fail" approach would probably work, but I just fundamentally hate the idea of gimping a product to prove that someone was wrong. It just seems so petty and juvenile, you know? When did adults devolve back into 5 year olds? Oh well, I guess I just have to walk away from these conflicts and let them prove their own mistakes.

 

[ctopher]

"...40/50/60+ years old, which means they are both detached from modern education and technology..."

Maybe at your company, but is not typical of that age group(s).

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

"Oh well, I guess I just have to walk away from these conflicts and let them prove their own mistakes. "
Exactly!

Also, you may be very surprised at how well some "grey hairs" keep abreast of what's new. Try to accept that the new stuff isn't always better, and may not be as new as you think it is. Often it's just a variation of an old theme which has been tried and found to be unsuitable.

In a perfect world, theory and practice would align perfectly. This isn't a perfect world.

 

[MintJulep]

I'm frequently told that it's not what you have to say, but how you say it that matters.

 

[SNORGY]

Where I work, in a situation like this, the standard default answer is to hire an MBA to fix the problem.

Not that I am in any way bitter.


Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[ajack1]

When I was (much) younger I had a similar problem with my parents, they were from a different era and knew nothing about the modern world.

Clearly I was the best driver in the world the day I passed my test and speed limits and driving what others saw as safely did not apply to me with my wonderful talents, they were only for the older generation with slow reaction times.

They would even suggest stupid things like investing time and money into studying, savings and a pension were good ideas and would serve me well in later life. What did they know? Clearly rugby, girls and beer were far more important. I might be dead tomorrow.

Times do change and I do not do everything the same as my parents and they now come to me for help with some of the modern technology they do not understand as well as I do. I cannot begin to express my gratitude at how they stood by me and tried to offer there wisdom and help despite the fact that this arrogant young individual would continue to throw it back in their faces, something I deeply regret now.

If I had not been their son and just a work colleague for example I am sure they would have given up on me a long time ago and I would have missed out on some of the best advice I have ever been given.

I am not sure how relevant any of this is to the original post, but it is always a good idea to value wisdom and not to always assume you know best, at least in my experience, but as I am now a grey haired 50 something this probably doesn’t apply to the modern world.

 

[CheckThePlug]

ajack1:

I knew that someone would take that stance due to the vagueness of my intro. Let me ask you this question: would you pair aluminum screws with aluminum nuts in a situation where they will be torqued on regularly? No engineer I know of would, and they were almost shouting at me to do it that way when I advised them against it, in spite of not being able to provide one example of it being done successfully in this application. Then, the VP walked around asking every tech if he thought it would be OK, and they all basically said "yeah, that should be OK"...experts, right? They also ask me to make dovetails with paper thin wall thicknesses at the base "to save weight", ignore stress concentration by telling me not to fillet edges because they don't want it for aesthetic reasons, etc. Sound like wisdom to you? I have no problem listening to an experienced engineer, but working as a tech is not the same as going through an engineering curriculum and having product development experience (which I do have). If they wanted to bring in an engineering consultant with a PE to look over my parts, I would have zero issues with it, but they have clearly demonstrated on several occasions that they don't have the intrinsic mechanical understanding necessary to make quality products. All I know is that my previous boss, a PE with 18 years of experience, listened to my opinion more than these guys do and rarely made any changes to anything I designed and nothing I've ever made professionally has failed to perform as intended. Sometimes young people are wise because they've already absorbed the wisdom of their elders and surpassed them.

 

[ctopher]

Have calcs/prrof to back you. If the boss wants alum nuts with alum screws, give it to him. Add your calcs to the project folder with notes listing names who deviates from your calcs.
Always take notes. You can also send your notes to your boss via email with the recipient read option turned on. It keeps a record.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[CheckThePlug]

I've definitely thought of making a form that requires a signature for any mechanical change I don't approve of. That way, when things go bad like I said they would, I have a signed document showing I had disagreed with the decision. I also plan on leaving the "engineering approval" slot blank on drawings and put someone else's name (whoever forced the change) on the manufacturing approval so that it is further clear that I did not approve. Hand calcs wouldn't do me much good as they wouldn't understand it anyway and every time I've offered I get the "blah blah blah I know better". I just can't get over the irony of the tireless hours I've spent in my life trying to learn about everything with the idea that it would be expected of me, only to have everyone assume I don't know anything because most people my age don't know anything.

 

[fade2blue]

At least you have the chance to influence the design. I've worked with techs/fabricators who would make products and then use engineering to create drawings and models from the completed part. Of course, if a problem surfaced with the part, engineering was questioned on our design decisions. Unfortunately the form>function, "custom chopper" decision makers are everywhere. If you show the functional impact of the decisions they are whimsically making through calculations and they do not affect public safety your boss should be responsible for authorizing them as you've mentioned.

 

[dvd]

I do not understand where some people get off: arguing with a college graduate. I am sure that someday the guilty will see the error of their ways.

 

[berkshire]

Check the plug.
Your idea of making a check form sounds like a good one.
The chances of getting the crew you are working with to sign it are slim and none.
Keep your own documentation ,names times places private and only bring it out when you need to defend yourself.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[CheckThePlug]

dvd:

I listed specific examples that any half-witted engineer would clearly recommend against. Your smart alec comment is not appreciated. All of these people have literally no product development/engineering experience, it's not as if they've worked side by side with engineers for years.