How will we replace plastics? 9

[epoisses]

I find it funny how many people wonder what we should do if we run out of oil (economically speaking), while there's a whole range of solutions readily available (GTL, nuclear, fuel cell, hydro, solar, wind...). A much more tricky question IMHO is, how are we ever going the replace LDPE, HDPE, PP, PS, PU..???

 

[BobPE]

I like the novel idea of simply mining our landfills, that should give us another 100+ years for a lot of materials including plastic....LOL

Bob

 

[PSE]

While I do not recall the source directly, I do remember coming across a few articles about extracting polymer bases out of certain plant varieties.

Regards,

 

[ewh]

Some plastics can be plant based. Henry Ford was playing around with the idea of using hemp-based plastic for auto bodies until the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act put an end to it.

 

[MadMango]

Soy is a wonderful thing...

http://soyworkscorporation.com/

[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[ivymike]

If they could only find a way to make useful polymers from baby seals and humpback whales...

 

[Rich2001]

Plastics from plant material.

Cotton soaked in nitric acid --—> cellulose nitrate

nitrocellulose + camphor --> celluloid

Used for billiard ball ~1890 however some problems - exploding billiard balls

---------------------------------------------
Plastics from milk

Casein proteins were one of the first plastics,(1900-1930's) and they are still in use for this purpose. Thin plastic films of casein can be made by adding glycerol or sorbitol as a plasticizer, a substance that lowers the temperature at which a plastic softens, and makes it more pliable.


Vita sine litteris mors est.

 

[sms]

Plastics are built with hydrocarbon chains, methane, works just as well as crude oil, all you need are the hydrogens and carbons...So we build a really large tanker, with a really long dip tube. We run that bad boy out to one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn where there is a bunch of hydrocarbons in the atmosphere, drop down the straw and fill up the tank. Then bring it back into earth orbit, where we make plastics in orbital stations.

I work for a chemical company that makes HDPE, LDPE, etc, and my boss keeps telling me to think outside the box, how was that??

 

[Creeker]

I'm not sure how it works, but our local grocer uses plastic containers that are bio-degradable. I think they're similar to the Soy product posted above, but are made from corn. Now I'm curious... gonna go have another look.

 

[BitTwiddler]

Plastics are made of chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms.

There is no shortage of either element on the surface of Earth. Oceans made of water (two hydrogen atoms per molecule) cover two-thirds of the Earth's surface. Carbon dioxide (one carbon atom per molecule) constitutes 379 parts per million (and rising) of the air we breathe.

The only problem is taking apart the water and carbon dioxde molecules and assembling the polymers of carbon and hydrogen. This requires energy.

The sun provides about 1.3 kilowatts of power per square meter at the distance at which Earth orbits the Sun. As much as 900 Watts per square meter passes through the atmosphere to the Earth's surface on a clear summer day.

All that humans need to do to make plastics is combine these three bountiful quantities (hydrogen, carbon, and energy). The best method would be to genetically engineer plants (including micro-organisms such as algae) to produce polymers. Photosynthesis has been used to produce sugar (C6 H12 06) for eons. It should not be too difficult to redesign plants to produce chains of carbon and hydrogen. Just leave out the oxygen and make long strings of the carbon atoms.

I look forward to the day when the north coast of New Jersey becomes a sea of green instead of a series of refineries and chemical plants.

 

[flamby]

All responses are based on the assumption that we will continue to enjoy the same standards of life after we run out of oil. IMHO, this is unfounded optimism.

Our current standard of life is all because of high energy consumption. Geographically speaking, developed contries have higher per capita energy consumption. This is a proven hypothesis.

By the same logic, oil being a major source of energy, standards of living will come down. So I think people will care less about plastic and more about mules.

Ciao.

 

[moltenmetal]

You're thinking about this the wrong way. There's more than enough oil and oil-convertible fossil fuels to last us, our kids, and our kids' kids even at our (insane) projected future levels of consumption. All the "scarecity" of low lift-cost crude oil and natural gas will do is push us to more and more expensive, less energy-efficient sources like tar sands, oil shale, and coal gasification combined with gas-to-liquids technology. All of these mean more tonnes of CO2 and other combustion by-products per kilowatt of energy expended or per pound of plastic delivered etc.

What we need to do is get a grip on our stupid, wasteful consumption addiction. The only way we're going to do so is to tax consumption of these fossil materials and reinvest the revenue into programs to wean us of our addiction. Priority should be given to the most appropriate use of these materials. Crude oil is too valuable as a feedstock to be burning it wantonly like we currently do.

 

[UcfSE]

Would you like paper or... or.. errr, ummm, paper, ma'am?

 

[ivymike]

or cotton, or hemp...

 

[Heckler]

Hemp impregnated bronze bearings......great for your rotating equipment designs.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
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o
_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Do you trust your intuition or go with the flow?

 

[PSE]

moltenmetal,

I would agree with you on the additional tax if I could actually believe that government would use the additional funds to persue alternatives. Unfortunately I do not believe it would happen. A tax on our consumption "addiction" would only feed the addiction of any government (money). I wonder just how quickly the program funded by this type of tax would be cut or disappear and the funds used elsewhere. Or perhaps I am just feeling way too cynical this morning.

Regards,

 

[Slugger926]

We already have alternatives.

I remember in college buying ink pens that were made from glucose polymers that were extracted from corn stalks. To top it off, they were biodegradible when you desposed of them. That same company also made chairs, desks, and anything you could think of from the corn stalk glucose polymers.

 

[moltenmetal]

PSE: even if the money were merely "consumed" by government on other things (principally health care and education here in Canada- those are the two single biggest government line items here), a tax on consumption would still do part of the job. Properly coupled to conservation programmes by means of a segregated fund, we'd be much further ahead because then government wouldn't be eyeing these funds for use in schools and hospitals (to which everything else will always lose- people's emotional hot-buttons are easily pushed).

Without a signal to people's pocketbooks, strong enough for them to notice, we'll continue in our addicted la-la land and CO2 and other combustion emissions are going nowhere but up.

Just using transportation as an example, considering the up-surge in stupid, wasteful consumption in the form of 8-cylinder cars, 2-tonne SUVs for city commuting, the death of the local railroads and the increased use of trucks etc. here in North America, obviously the price signal isn't strong enough yet for it to enter into people's decision-making process when purchasing vehicles, making shipping decisions etc. When the pricing signal is strong enough, fuel consumption may finally move into the top 10 of people's considerations when choosing a vehicle. Until it's the #1 or #2 consideration, the price needs to increase.

 

[SacreBleu]

Easy solution - stop the wasteful consumption of cheap plastic give-away toys at McDonald's etc. <sarcasm>

 

[Rich2001]

Posted with a just a hint of sarcasm. Rather than imposing a consumption tax on plastics. Let goverement impose a ban on Air Conditioning in the goverment builds, especially the capital, house and senate office builds, the court houses and the Whitehouse in DC, and similiarly in each state. That way maybe the elected offical will not stay in DC long enough to pass wasteful ($) laws. I have no doubt that the funds from a tax on plastics will not be used for other items. All taxes, including FICA that are collected by the federal goverement go into a general fund. - end of screed.

Many of the weight saving, read as increasing gas milage, in transporation systems were accomplished by switching from metal to a polymer material.

Does it take more energy to produce a ton of steel automotive parts or to produce an equivalent amount to plastics components?

Vita sine litteris mors est.