Hydroflow vs. HydroCAD vs. HEC-HMS for Design of Ponds

[jvilbig]

I am looking for some guidance on what programs may be best to design multiple ponds in series with pipes in between.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=142974

That thread has some great information about HydroCAD, Hydroflow, Pondpack, HEC-HMS, etc., but is from 2005-2006.

We already have Hydroflow (as it is packaged with AutoCAD Civil 3D 2009) and I am wondering if purchasing HydroCAD would be advantageous. Pondpack is too expense (and complicated) and it seems like the other programs mentioned in the thread were not recommended as much.

I used HydroCAD five years ago when I was right out of school at another company and remember it being very user friendly.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks - Jennifer

 

[psmart]

HydroCAD will definitely handle interconnected ponds with variable tailwater. Just route one pond directly to the next using the DSI routing procedure. For details see

http://www.hydrocad.net/tailwater.htm

I believe that Hydraflow is limited to fixed tailwater conditions, so it cannot be used for interconnected ponds.

Peter Smart
HydroCAD Software

http://www.hydrocad.net

 

[LincolnPE]

EPA SWMM 5 offers a Full Dynamic wave routing option that solves the complete one dimensional St Venant equations (continuity, momentum and volume)that is very good for routing through multiple connected ponds. The Dynamic Wave routing option can handle, backwater flow reversals, channel storage, conduit pressurization, downstream diversions and looped networks.

 

[beej67]

EPA SWMM is the gold standard, and it's free, but it's awfully damn complicated and if you don't know what you're doing, you could easily make an error with your model. I don't know off the top of my head how good its output is. I know XP-SWMM's printouts are wretched, leading any engineer intending to produce reports in a professional manner to have to port all the raw data into Excel and build your own graphs and figures. Huge headache.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[SMIAH]

I find HMS easy to deal with.

But it might not be the best choice for a "detailed system".

I have SewerGEMS too. But can't recommend it!

 

[LincolnPE]

HEC-HMS does not account for backwater effects. In its reservoir model, it assumes the outlet is under inlet control.

 

[SMIAH]

Yes it does.
The outflow is a function of the upstream water-surface elevation.

HEC RAS for unsteady flow.

 

[LincolnPE]

Yes it does.
The outflow is a function of the upstream water-surface elevation.

That is called inlet control. HEC-HMS is a kinematic, cascading flow model, that does not account for backwater effects.

 

[SMIAH]

Sorry that's what I meant... no backwater.

But ... maybe he don't need it.

 

[beej67]

If he doesn't know whether he needs it or not, then he needs it. :/

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[SMIAH]

But I'd recommend HEC RAS. It could probably simulate "multiple ponds in series with pipes in between".

 

[beej67]

I absolutely would not recommend HEC-RAS for pond routing.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[SMIAH]

Design multiple ponds in series with pipes in between

Meant HEC HMS !

 

[beej67]

Oh, then no, HMS definitely doesn't do that, unless the first pond is way up on a hill and the WSE in the lower pond never affects the upper one. If you're looking for Free Government Software that does that, your only option to my knowledge is EPA-SWMM. If you're looking for Cheap Downloadable Software that does it, Peter's software does a reasonable job.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[SMIAH]

Maybe that lower pond doesn't affect the upper pond?? Who knows (apart jvilbig)
E.g. Series of ponds, with height difference, connected with culvert (pipes)/stream.

Then it could be solved with hydrological routing methods (ex.: Kinematic Wave) with or without tailwater information (rating curve, fix stage) in HMS.

HEC RAS can do it too (but wasn't mention as an option).
I don't say I'd recommend it, but it can do the job.
It might actually be easier to define the caracteristics of the discharge control (inline structure) with RAS than SWMM. Then using area-elevation or volume-elevation information and a correct discharge rating curve should be ok for a "pond". Pipe could be set as culverts (I'm thinking they're) + any stream section.

HydroCAD do that actually... You have to specity a culvert outlet device on the upper pond.
Sorry but HMS can do that... Ouflow structure with culvert, spillway, dam tops, pumps, etc.
RAS can do that too...

Not sure SWMM is the best software to do that - How do you define a pond in SWMM?? A large trapezoidal channel ?? Can you define a spillway as in HMS or RAS (OGEE, Broaded, Sharp + Gates).

 

[LincolnPE]

How do you define a pond in SWMM??A large trapezoidal channel ??

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