I'm hoping that this is not typical corporate behavior...I guess 3

[Boothby171]

I've been at my current company for about 4 years, and this particular problem has come up once or twice before.

But I've had enough, and I don't think I'm going to take it any more.

I was recently involved in a project that suffered from a cost overrun. After talking to the client, I agreed to perform a task that I felt would take a few hours. Now, this is fairly normal, since we have open ended contracts with a lot of our clients. The task took almost one full day, though, and I failed to call the client back to let him know of the overrun in hours. He got billed for this overrun. To make the matter worse, I had misunderstood the level of task he required. On a scale of 1-10, he wantged a "2"; I gave him (and charged him for) a "6".

I'd love to be more specific, but in a minute, you'll see why I can't.

The client was upset with the additional cost, although he did pay it. My boss didn't want to have a disgruntled client out in the world, but the company president didn't care (initially).

The president of the company evenually wrote the client a refund check. The client is not happy, and will probably not do business with us again (which is unfortunate), but hopefully sees us as trying to be fair-minded.

Here's the rub: They haven't explicitly stated it, but they've implied it very strongly: they want me to somehow pay them back.

I'm not an administrator at the company; I'm not a project manager or a department head. I'm just one of the many engineers in this engineering consulting firm.

So is this typical? That a company should back-charge its engineers for overruns? If I'm going to be asked to take these risks, then I'm going to have to ask to be in-line for the heightened rewards as well.

Maybe I should ask them to back-charge the other engineers who accidentally destroyed about $30K in capital equipment, but I've goten the sense it's just me.

Or maybe I just needed to rant.

Either way--thanks in advance

 

[TheTick]

Sick behavior. Get out at the earliest opportunity. Sounds like an overall failure to communicate on all sides.

If they dock your pay, call an attorney.

If you are really interested in paying them (your employer?) back, do it with overtime hours, which you've probably already done several times over unpaid anyways.

 

[IRstuff]

If there sufficient cause, it may or may not be justified.

Were there rules of engagement as to whether you were authorized to accept additional scope items?

Did you violate written rules pertaining to that?

TTFN

 

[MortenA]

If the want a "cash refund" then i would apply for a new job. But if they want you to work harder and be more carefull in the future then i would try to live up to that. It is important not to overspend - and at least to clear it with your (initially) superiors then your client. Why your superior first? Because he can then decide weather to please the client and do the work for free or to call the client and get an approval first.

Best regards

Morten

 

[GregLocock]

How can you have a cost overrun on an open ended contract? It sounds to me as though /you/ made a mistake and did extra work on a fixed cost contract.

On the other hand, the customer should have known you were into an overrun, and by asking you to do the job he was accepting some sort of liability for the cost involved.

So

1) was it a fixed cost contract?

2) did the customer know it had gone overbudget?

3) did YOU know it had gone overbudget?





Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[mshimko]

Many details are missing (Greg mentioned a few);

- Was the contract a firm fixed price, or cost-plus?
- Was your position one of responsibility? That is, did you have the authority to commit company hours to additional work?

Some of the "details" just don't add up. If the additional work you did took 8 hours vice 4 hours, was that a significant additional charge? I can see the project manager/program manager/other manager getting upset, as they really look at the bottom line numbers, and a few hours could easily eat into expected profit; but I don't see the customer getting upset.

Last, my company did an internal survey of senior engineer and managers a few years ago (a survey which I coordinated); the most common recommendation, or caution, was to ensure you know what the "Statement of Work" says, and ensure you and the customer agree on your interpretation of the SOW. Part of the problem above was that the customer and "boothby" had different impressions on the scope of the additional work he performed.

 

[corus]

Half a day's work turns into a day's work and the president of the company gets involved?? Where is this, Japan?

corus

 

[waskillywabbit]

The client should have given you a detailed scope of work...and you should have asked for one.

With such negative feelings about your employer(s), I'd suggest moving cordially. Never burn bridges unless you can fly.



Brian

http://www.mcabeeconstruction.com

Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.

 

[BobPE]

Cash payments by employees back to the company in consulting is not the norm, in fact, I have been in consulting for over 20 years, and I have never seen or talked about his topic.

Consulting is a game at times where you must hawk your wears. If you performed work professional engineer, in accordance with ethics, you must be paid. Now that said, your bosses are running a business and that takes many forms, including reducing fees to clients in order to sustain the business as they [managers] see fit.

Sounds like you needed to rant, which is OK, most of us do here. I would take it on the chin and chalk it up as a learning experience. Only, I would take it one step further and engage your bosses to understand what it is they did, how they can mentor you to understand what was done, and ask them how everyone can do it better so that the next time this happens, and it will, the outcome is different.

I take great pride in getting paid for what I do as an engineer. Our services have tremendous value, and we all to ofter are the first ones to under rate that value.

Let us know how things are going....

BobPE

 

[monkeydog]

One thing that seems to stand-out to me, is the customer must have been un-happy with your company to start with. This was just the icing on the cake. Unfortunate for you, you were the cake. I don't think the customer would have stayed with your company much longer.

 

[ctopher]

I would get out ASAP. Call a lawyer.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP0.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

 

[bimr]

I too have seen this happen. Here is a similar story.

You get a project manager who says that he did not open the project number yet, and then asks you to keep track of the hours and then you can bill them "later".

Later on when you ask to transfer the hours, the project manager will argue with you about the work effort that you put in and then suggest that you bill your hours to previously accumulated but unpaid overtime.

If you are at work, the company is legally obligated to pay you. However, you are an "at will" employee and the company can fire you at any time as well as for any cause.

These types of actions are taken by selfish managers who are looking out only for themselves and have no regards for their fellow employees, clients, or employers.


If you allow the employer to treat you like that, they will continue to do so. You should move on and don't look back

 

[Boothby171]

Thanks, all for the responses.

Re. 4 into 8 hours--I was being approximate. More like 2 into 8--either way, though, it was an overrun.

Part of it was my fault--bad communication with the client. I have since learned my lesson.

That particular contract was open-ended, and was working on verbal requests. It had been going OK until that point. A lot of our contracts start purely verbally--meaning, we start work, start billing, and receive payment all with phone calls and telecon write-ups as the main source of info. Bigger contracts get legal contracts up-front. Smaller contracts may simply be invoices.

Doesn't need a lawyer as far as I can tell. Maybe just a headhunter.

Thanks again!

--Boothby

 

[Ron]

boothby....I don't mean to be unkind, but it appears that you work for a rather unsophisticated small company. Routinely working without contracts, poor communication processes, and lack of Senior involvement in scope changes lead to problems.

If you like most of the aspects of the company, take the initiative and discuss your concerns directly with your supervisor and the President, since he seems closely involved.

As for paying back a cost overrun....absurd.

 

[Boothby171]

The work here is difficult and very rewarding (both good things, in my book), but the management can be too cost-conscious (in that it leads them to make strange demands on its employees, fails to provide proper tools without a fight, etc. ,etc. In that last point, though, I expect they're similar to many other companies in today's challenging budgetary environment.

But what I'm looking for (and have received) is the response to the "paying back a cost overrun" question. Answers like "never in my life," and "absurd" echo what I've been hearing from people I've spoken to IRL.

As far as small and unsophisticated--maybe. I've certainly worked for worse (though I did leave that one in a day and a half!). I'd give these guys points for "shortsightedness," though.

 

[BJC]

Boothby
You made a mistake, you missed an estimate. If all the engineers and contractors who missed an estimate were to hold a convention in Las Vegas, half of them would have to commute from Phoenix or somewhere.
As you employer I would see your mistake as valuable training. My guess is that it couldn't have cost more than $900-1000. Your employers should be able to minimize the cost by writing it off as BD or training.
Whatever piddley sum it cost is from the employers’ side it is well spent, you'll never make that mistake again. If they get rid of you the next guy will probably make a similar mistake.
You didn't make the mistake on your own, the company ( it's management, culture and systems did ). You did the work they have agreed to pay you for it. You can find lots of engineering projects that didn't work for one reason or another. I have never heard of the management trying to collect cost from the peons who worked on it.
You as I said are not the only one to underestimate a project. It happens all the time. BD or Principals in a firm will estimate a job over dinner and base the engineering hours on total cost or square footage. When the job gets to the details it may take a lot more engineering hours than the rules of thumb indicated. In a lot of engineering firms it typical to beat the extra hours out of the engineers by coercion and intimidation. Many know the routine “you have to work OT and Saturday, we have to meet the schedule”.
I worked with a fellow once who was given a budget for the electrical on a four-story building. It was under budgeted. His attempts to get enough hours fell on deaf ears. He documented all his estimates and reasoning. When the job was done the electrical drawings for the 4th floor were pretty much blank. It had some stumble lighting and that was it. He didn’t get fired. When explaining what he had done to VP of that division he told them the job was under estimated and his choices were? Coerce people to work for free (essentially stealing from them), do an inadequate job or just do part of a job well.
You should go out in the parking lot and look at the cars your bosses drive. If they’re all driving expensive cars and the peons are driving the beaters. Get out today. Call in sick (tell them you have eye trouble—you can’t see working for a CS outfit like that). The only assets an engineering company has are people. If they don’t treat them somewhat decently the place is in a slow spiral, bail out now.
BTW - You didn’t say you were registered, but what kind of reference are you likely to get from these guys.

 

[Boothby171]

I am a PE in two states. My immediate boss would give me a good reference; I cannot predict what the company president will say.

I have other contacts in my industry who would give me excellent recommendations. We've actually just completed a very high profile project that's been getting a lot of great press--their recommendations would come with a great deal of value!

 

[rhodie]

Shoot, if they don't put anything in writing, then don't pay any attention to it! (Regardless if "it" either is contracts with clients, or a desire for you to pay them back...)

The lesson to be learned is on their end, not yours...

 

[Boothby171]

If I'm in a business that works (and normally works well) with informal agreements, I'm not going to be the one to force it to change.

The lesson was there to be learned by both myself and my company. Unfortunately, my company is now teaching me an additional lesson that I don't think they intended to.

 

[cardoso115]

I once worked in a firm like the one you say.

My boss was a lousy manager and the specifications for the project I was in changed daily. And instead of refusing this situation with the client or billing him for it, he expected me to put in overtime to compensate and to meet deadlines that didn't change.

I got sick of it and did what was best, LEAVE!!