In need of a career coach 2

[oranjeep]

I am recently separated from the military (Captain, US Army) and I possess a BSEE and have passed the EIT. I have 6 months work experience in power (low voltage).
I am going to go for a masters (MBA or MSE), but until then, I want to get a job to gain more experience. I have a lot to offer a company, but it is incredibly hard to put it into words. My technical skills are lacking, but my leadership/managment skills are great. I can come up with dozens of stories where I walked into a work situation that was all messed up, and I told him to go there and do that, her to go over here and do this... and then everything was OK again. Unfortunately, I was not telling him to go over there and do a short circuit analysis. I was telling him to go over there and call in 81mm mortar fire on that position.
So, when I tell Bob/Sally the engineer this, they look at me like they have no idea what I am talking about-which is understandable. Not that every Bob/Sally I interview with has never heard of the military, but most have not heard of the unglamourous side of it (the grunts) were leadership is a life or death element.

To put it mildly, I was not telling Private Snuffy Smith to reconfigure the NIC card for the server-I was telling him to dig his hole deeper, or he was going to get his head blown off! Granted, it was all in a training evnvironment, but that was it. That was my job. If one of our weapons did not work, or our optics were not working properly, we sent it to maintenance. As a matter of fact, it was an Article 15 offense for us grunts to try to fix it ourselves!

So here I am, trying to come up with some stories that will impress an engineering hiring manager. I try to "civilianize" my language as much as possible, but it is very difficult to do without losing much of the meaning.

Who is hiring young engineers with a lot of leadership experience, but not much technical experience?
How do I get the technical experience I need? Do I have to go out and but the software suite and become and expert on my own computer, and then put that on a resume? I need som help. No-one in my family is an engineer. My Dad cannot even operate a TV remote. None of my friends are engineers.

The last place I worked at-after they let me go because they thought I did not know enough-was pretty cold about helping me find another job. I know they are not obligated to, but a guy should help another guy out when he can. Enough said about that. Where can I network? Here?

 

[sc]

Welcome to the real world.

One of your best starts would be to have a browse through this forum and a few others to learn how we tackle different problems. Be wary not all of the advice applies to all people.

Have a look join a few discussions.

Another option may be to do some voluntary work with some engineering organisations to gain experience without putting the firm under obligation to employ you. You never know this in itself may lead to permanent work. It will also show that you are willing to have a go and learn.

regards

sc

 

[oranjeep]

No kidding. It is just frustrating. I would do volunteer or unpaid internship work in a second if I knew where to look; I am sick of looking on the Internet.

I am going to raid a few college campuses and pilliage some career centers. I bet I can get an internship somwhere.

I am going to make someone a lot of money someday, and I am keeping every last rejection letter or non-reply to every company I take a shot at. I have a stack of them as thick as a dictionary now. I am keeping ALL of them.

Forget the internet of responding to newspaper ads.
I am going to walk right into the place and ask to see the hiring manager-I am going to make it easy for them to hire me-cut out the middle man.

Sure, it comes across as aggressive...but you know what?
I do NOT want to work for a company that does not like aggressiveness. If they can't talk to me, fine, there is another company right down the road.

 

[sc]

oranjeep,

You may be surprised to know that walking in and asking for work is my best method of getting jobs. I haven't applied for a single advertised job in the last 15 years, yet I've managed to remain employed. One job was full time and two jobs were part time while at Uni. The first one was for a private sector survey office selling civil engineering software and doing drafting work, the second one was for a local government council (who by the way quite often value military training). The job lasted for 2 years while funding was avalaible and involved road and drainage design. The third job was my first job out of Uni at a private firm (as a civil engineer) where I progressed through to manager of a regional office within 3 years. I left this job to work for myself.

As you have stated you have the leadership/management skills. Concentrate on learning the technical side by reading journals, trade magazines, attending seminars etc. You will be surprised by how much knowledge you can pickup from reading current trade magazines (latest trends, problems, solutions, etc). This will also help to get your technical vocabulary up to date.

When talking to prospective employers concentrate on your management skills and apply for jobs that will use these skills. I would suggest that you may not be suited to pure technical grunt work along the lines of what a graduate may do. Don't try to impress the employer with your "technical" knowledge, as you stated this is not currently your strong point and may lead you to a place you don't want to go. Concentrate on waht your are good at.

As for the people that interview you when they ask how you would approach a problem, tell them the steps you would take to identify the problem, then how you could solve it. Don't try to impress with long winded technical explanations as most of the HR people don't know what you are on about anyway. They are more interested in whether or not you have a systematical approach that will lead to solutions.

regards
sc

 

[GregLocock]

It is rather a long time since I've been interviewed, but I cannot remember being interviewed by anyone other than engineering managers, or engineers, except by HR as a sort of 'these are the terms and conditions' sort of affair.

There again I've only ever been interviewed for engineering jobs, not management.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[PSE]

Decide what type of work you want to do.
Research the companies in your area that offer those types of jobs.
Knock on their doors.
Join a local association or Engineering chapter and network.
Be Persistent (sounds like you are)

Good luck

 

[TheTick]

Keep your eyes on the Army Times and Navy Times classifieds. That is where employers go when seeking people with military experience.

It's a tough time to be hitting the job market. Is it too late to go back in?

All this machinery making modern music can still be open hearted.

 

[Binary]

I was a Marine Corps NCO. I find that it gets mentioned in interviews.

One thing that I always discuss from my military background is having learned the chain of command. As you well know, the OIC expects his NCOs to challenge his thoughts and desired course of action but

a) at the right time, not necessarily in the middle of the action (but maybe even then)

b) with respect to the fact that the OIC is the OIC

c) behind closed doors, away from the troops

However, once the OIC has made his decision, the questioning stops and you walk out the door and execute his plan to the best of your ability, without criticism.

This approach carries over directly into professional life but some people really struggle with it.

My point is, try to take what you've learned in the Army and translate it into things that apply in the industrial world.

You can probably also tell of situations where failure to plan resulted in failed missions (or more difficult ones, anyway) or where you needed to adapt to changing constraints in order to complete the mission.

I think the military background is a great plus. (Remember, though, in the civilian world you can't throw somebody in jail because they don't do what you tell 'em ;-) )

I'd get out the old EE texts and start a comprehensive review to make sure your fundamentals are sharp.

Oh yeah, if by chance you got your degree at USMA, that is a huge plus. Anybody who knows anything about the military knows the rigor of an academy education.

 

[pmureiko]

Stress the ability to delegate, organize, and solve new problems in unknown situations. Many employers list the job requirements of a technician (repair and maintain) for an engineer which is to create value.

Good luck.

 

[xnuke]

Looks like you've dug yourself a (fox)hole.

I'm ex-Navy enlisted, and I've gone back to school part-time for a MSEE while working. I've talked to many engineering students who were thinking about the joining the military after graduation. I told them that they should think about whether or not they wanted to be design engineers since a tour in the military usually provides them with several years of non-engineering work experience, and this may make it harder to find an engineering job after getting out. Those that do find a technical job in the military are usually more suited to operations and maintenance engineering jobs rather than design engineering.
I'm sorry to see this has happened to you, but thank you for affirming that my advice is valid.

There are companies out there that do appreciate military discipline, training, and assertiveness. My military background helped me get my current job as a control systems design engineer, as one of the interviewers had known ex-Navy nukes before. I think the difference may be that I was working in a technical field in the military, while it sounds like you weren't.

As far as raiding colleges for career help, I question your integrity. Those services are provided for students, who've basically paid for their help via tuition and fees. Since you have no relationship to the colleges in any way, in my opinion you should not be using their career centers.

I do wish you luck finding a job, but remember, the economy is soft, and there are a lot of out-of-work experienced engineers that you're competing with for jobs. You may want to find a job (it may not be in engineering) and earn a graduate certificate or degree before trying to move into engineering again.



xnuke

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ICman]

Pick up a copy of "What Color Is Your Parachute?", or something similar. These books help you list your strengths and weaknesses and (sorta) lead you to careers that would be best for you.

From reading your post, I would guess you should concentrate on those jobs requiring leadership ability, as well as a technical approach. Project Management is a good possibility. Check out

http://www.pmi.org

(Project Management Institute). If you attend local meetings, you will find it's a great way to network. Obtaining a PMP (Project Management Professional) certification would be a big plus.

Do not stress TECHNICAL ability, unless you have it. I have found that these young whippersnappers just coming out of college are a lot more knowledgeable than I am on computers (though my minor was Computer Science), but they know next-to-nothing about real world problems.

I once worked with an ex-Marine drill instructor , who had excellent engineering and organizational skills, but was too demanding on his team. He would become very frustrated when they did not do what he wanted, or do it the way he wanted them to. I guess the problem was that he was stuck on the military way of thinking, which doesn't always work out in the real world. Think about it . Don't let it show thru during an interview, and you'll do fine.

Good luck in your new career!

 

[plasgears]

I got my present job thru the following book: "The Chicago Job Bank" or similar title. There are numerous head hunter agencies listed there who use electronic resources for connecting talent with job openings. One interview led to another; I figured out that one agency was networking with another agency.

I was prior military with the Corps/Engrs, and it appeared on my resume. Just describe the experience briefly and to the point. Everything you say should support your effort to secure the position at hand. Talk in terms of industrial processes: "computer based inventory control"; "working under tight time constraints"; "working effectively under trying circumstances"; "meeting requirements with reduced staff"; "worked under the principles of modern quality control management", etc.

When they probe your weaknesses, turn them into positives: "I tend to work my people too hard." "Sometimes I get home late, and my wife has to reheat dinner." A seasoned interviewer will smile when he hears this for two reasons: you are a producer, and you know how to play the interview game.

You are prior military, and you should know how to wear an impeccable suit. If they specify casual dress, use the highest standards for casual dress. This could mean everything first rate except no tie.

Finally, do your homework. Study the company on the net, ask for the organization chart, ask about the academic background and experience of the people you will be working for/with. Look over the plant and the office environment in which you will be working. You may not like what you hear, so move on.

GOOD LUCK.

 

[nhyankee2]

oranjeep,

20 year, Navy (surface fleet), enlisted, (HT1 Surface Warfare) been there, done that; here.

1) buy 'does your resume wear combat boots?'

2) move to Washington DC or Norfolk VA or San Diego CA or Berenton (sorry about the last spelling) WA

3) most of the former military I've met (O-1 and up) are 'marketing engineers' or technicians or consultants starting out, then grew into the management end within 3 to 5 years.

4) seek out those of us that have done it but don't use us exclusively.

5) Lastly, thank you for your survice and sacrifice to our country and the world. As my marine buddies say, "Semper Fi!" Sir.

 

[oranjeep]

Outstanding replys! You guys have reminded me of sources (Like the Army or Navy Times) that I can go to to find something tailored to my skill set. That "intimidation of the interviewer" advice is good to, because I think it happened with me a couple of times. Like I said, I do not want to work for somone who fears my ambitiousness anyway.

No problem. I know of people that have been out of work a lot longer than me, with a better skill set. Thanks a lot.

 

[tgordon]

Do you think you are giving yourself enough credit for what you do have to offer from your past experience? Frequently we concentrate on what we can't do rather than what we can. Go for the positive aspects of what you have done. We get buried in our own perspective of the situation, mulling it over and over like a cow chewing its cud. Sometimes we start listening and believing all our negative imaginations and the input from others on what we can't do. Make a list of affirmative statements about yourself, and read it several times a day (especially shortley after you first get up in the morning). A big part of success is in leveraging the POSITIVE about who you are and what you have done. Oh yea, if you find yourself short in some area, maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Time to bite the bullet and set yourself some new goals. Make sure you take the time to write them down and to determine for each goal, what are the specific things you can do to overcome the obstacles that are bound to come up. If you break down each goal and ask yourself what could go wrong with this approach, and determine the alternatives you have, you can develop a fail-Safe Plan for your success. It's sad to say but most people never discover this simple truth and just continue chewing their cud, and never get anywhere but frustrated. Any salesman knows… you can't sell anybody anything, unless they want to buy it. What you need to do is learn how to sell yourself so they want to buy. It's that simple! When you talk to perspective employers, make it a point to ASK THEM WHAT THEY WANT AND NEED, and then explain how you have solved a similar problem in your past experiences. If it is sincere and truthful you will have success. Most people get hired because the person hiring them "thinks" that the person they are hiring can solve THEIR immediate needs. Your job is to find out what THEIR immediate needs are, and help them to realize that YOU’RE THE GUY to solve their situation. They are really looking for results, not just the alphabet soup (MBA, DR, BSME) after the person's name.

Best of Luck,


A Coach.
ps. Look at performance-horizons.com

 

[pablo02]

Not all engineering jobs are strictly design -- many companies place a value on military leadership in dealing with delegating, leadership, counseling,etc (people issues) -- stress your responsibility on the number of people under you, the responsibilty to keep them focused and alive with what guidance, etc...... as mentioned, those strengths should be prominent -- also, for many entry level positions, companies are looking for background and potential, in that many graduates may not have the experience in their line of work -- the key might be in looking for an area that fits your current skills and lets you grow into those that come with the job -- you might consider looking at project management, utilities, some construction firms, government areas with this need, etc... there is a need for good people in these areas (even under the tight economic constraints we have).... follow the good advice from some of the other posts...

 

[buzzp]

Since you have military experience, have you checked into civillian engineer jobs offered by the government? You will get extra 'points' because of your military background. Granted the pay does not appear to be that high but there are jobs abound. Look at

http://www.usajobs.opm.gov

for a list of all government jobs. This would get your foot in the door.

Also, look at field service engineer jobs. They typically hire new grads and is a great way to get what most EE's don't-hands on experience. My first job was as a field service engineer and was a great experience. Good luck.

 

[oranjeep]

Despite all my negativity, I found a job. I am working as a "Electrical Reliability Engineer" at a large east coast crude oil refinery.
1. Is "reliability engineer" simply a term my company uses, or do other companies employ "reliability engineers"?
2. I have been hired with the intent of replacing the existing reliability engineer, who will be retiring. The issue is this; he is not retiring for another 2-3 years. This poses the question: Why hire a replacement 2-3 years in advance? (I am not unhappy with the arrangement. I am working as an engineer, learning a lot, and having a great time at work, which is all that I wanted.)
3. I like the fact that they are giving me two years to learn the job, and the present "Elecrtical Reliability Engineer" has no problem with me following him around for that long. I am sure my learning curve will be faster thatn they anticipated, and that I will be "earning my keep" so to speak within a matter of months.

 

[IRstuff]

Depends on the context.

We have a reliability engineer, whose job is to perform reliability predictions of new designs as well as to determine root causes for unexpected reliability fails.

TTFN

 

[PSE]

oranjeep,

Be very glad that you have a mentor to work with. You will likely start "earning my keep" as you say in a matter of months. If this is a single position at the refinery it is a good thing that you will have the 2-3 years of working together before you take on the full responsibility. It will give you an opportunity to really get the feel for the job and how to deal with the sometimes subtle problems that can rapidly escalate.

As IRstuff indicates, there are other Reliability Engineering positions. Testing/certification labs use them, Automotive, Aerospace and more. They sometimes get the "fun" job of testing or abusing products until they break in order to do a post-mortem of the failure.

Good luck with the new position.

Regards,