Industrial Designer needs help - car remote control

[SwissG]

Hello all,

I am an Industrial Designer, I design consumer products for a living. Sorry my questions may appear silly!

I am working on a small remote for car locks for a client. Users need to be able to program it (the same way one programs a 2nd set of car keys, by pushing buttons at correct intervals etc) to be able to unlock/lock their car's doors.

Questions:

Is this possible?

1)
Do I need to get specific information from car manufacturers (frequency, signals..) ?

2)
Are all car remotes working the same way? I don't believe I can program a GM key to open a Dodge vehicle, or am I wrong?


Thank you for your input.

 

[IRstuff]

Your underlying question is unclear. Are you trying to duplicate an OEM remote, or come up with a universal remote?

If so, the yes, you'll probably need to work VERY closely with the OEM. It's unlikely that any OEM would have frequency or codes similar to anyone else's since that would lead to interference.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[SwissG]

I am trying to create a universal remote.

I understand that each car manufacturer uses a different frequency / codes.

Could user plug it into their PC and download the appropriate data? Or is this not something that can be simply programmed?

 

[IRstuff]

I'm confused. You're trying to design a universal remote, yet you know nothing about even your own car remotes? Do you see a USB port anywhere on your own remotes?

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[SwissG]

IRStuff

You are correct, I know nothing about electrical engineering and electronic car keys. The product I am working on is not your typical electric keyfob.

A USB port, or other form of connection to a computer, could theoretically be added, if needed, to program the remote to work with a specific car.

 

[mcgyvr]

If you don't have the memory available on your device then you obviously need to connect to a computer or other device to pull in the necessary codes as needed.
Thats how my logitech universal remote works.. They obviously don't want to fill up the memory with every command for every manufacturer out there so you connect it via a usb cable and select your devices then it uploads the necessary codes to the remote and away you go.

You've got a lot of work to do... Many have multiple security features built in/rfid chips,serialization,etc..nowadays. I hope you quoted high enough for this project...

 

[MiketheEngineer]

My 10 year old Ford F-150 does this... Look there??

 

[SwissG]

mcgyvr:

Thanks. Regarding the codes (for car locks) do you know if they're available, and how tough it would be to get them? As far as I know, thiefs would have no use for these codes, since it takes a 2nd key to program it.


MiketheEngineer:

Sorry, what do you mean? Your Ford came with a programmable key..?

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If we're simply talking about car lock remotes, the vast majority of them (these days, anyway) use one of only a couple of chips on the market... I think Microchip has the bulk of the market. You'll need to sign an NDA with Microchip to get the code sequence algorithm.

If you're talking about the fobs for limiting access to starting a car, now you're getting into a more serious area, and I doubt you would see much cooperation from the major dealers.



Why is an industrial designer trying to handle the electrical and firmware design of a keyfob?

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[itsmoked]

You could setup a receiver/oscilloscope and 'play' every kind of keyfob to it so you see what their formats are. Then build a receiver into your fob that just records the owner's key and plays it back thru a transmitter. Skip the whole USB thing.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[MikeHalloran]

The Man In The Middle attack, recording the output of a keyfob and later duplicating it, would have worked, before rolling codes were introduced. ... quite a while ago.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[IRstuff]

You have to be a dealer or a licensed locksmith to get them

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[SwissG]

MacGyver:

Thanks a lot, that's valuable information. Yes I am talking about the simple car lock remotes, NOT remote-starting fobs etc..

To answer your question, I am a bit different in that I don't necessarily complete set tasks/goals for clients. I usually set up entire product lines and brands for clients who give me relatively free rein.


itsmoked:

If feasible/reliable, this could be an excellent alternative. My product is quite small, however, so this receiver/chip would have to be small as well. Is this something Microchip manufactures?

I agree that using USB / cables is a bad idea. Forcing end-users to get involved leads to higher rates of rejection / refunds.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

NO - I was addressing the codes to get in the door. The key is a another thing.

Many keys today have an encrypted code that has to "match" the car before starting.

As a matter of fact many cars don't even have keys. If you have the "fob" and it can read it - it will start with the push of a button - usually called "START"

Maybe we can have the "fob" put in my wife's arm and she wouldn't loose her "keys!!!!!!

 

[IRstuff]

Ah, but you wouldn't need the WHOLE fob for your wife's arm, just the chip, so it could be in an RFID form factor ;-)

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[MacGyverS2000]

itsmoked's idea won't work for the reason Mike mentions, rolling codes. You won't be able to copy someone else's fob directly. In fact, most of the "programming" of a new remote happens on the car's ECU side of things. I think if you take a look at the major brands out there, you'll find the majority of them are transmitting the same generic codes already (with a manufacturer-defined ID code attached to it, which is programmed in internal EEPROM), it's just what the car does with them that matters.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[VEBill]

In addition to all the above points (all valid), different remote systems use any of several different frequency bands. So you'll either have N parallel systems (making the key fob that much larger), or you'll travel down the same tortuous path as other Software Defined Radio projects (e.g. JTRS - don't get me started...).

It doesn't matter. The automakers' security considerations alone are the perfect show stopper. The End.

 

[itsmoked]

That's what I was thinking VE1BLL a SDR. I believe Maxim-ic is making a nice one now that is tiny. I have an NSA acquaintance who loves SDRs.

Now about this "rolling code" do tell.. How's that work?

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[VEBill]

They're still working on the SDA* technology, required to fulfill many of the promises made about SDR technology. * Software Defined Antenna - a mythical beast that covers *all* frequencies and applications with one software programmable structure. From HF to microwaves, including a magic LNA to meet all requirements. La la la...

SDR technology is fine - if not oversold.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Keith,

It's a linear shift register with a very long rollover period. The algorithm is designed that even if the fob and car get out of sequence (e.g., pressing the key fob while you're in the middle of the mall and your car is somewhere out in no man's land because it's Christmas and the frikkin' mall owner thinks it's okay to open up a slush lot 5 miles down the road and... wait, where was I?), they will resync within a few keypresses (I believe it's three). So, if a press doesn't open the door, the typical consumer will press a few more times anyway, and it eventually catches up.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com