Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations? 2

[leanne]

Consider the case of many industry exempts:

No RPEs in an engineer's current realm of influence.

How can an engineer in an industry exempt job make connections with RPEs who would be willing to become familiar with the engineer's work to vouch for them on an RPE application? Without the engineer being required to leave current job.

How about a little brainstorming?

 

[electricpete]

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/lic_basic.htm

"….Although it is recommended that the engineering experience be obtained while working under the supervision of a licensed professional engineer, this is not a requirement for licensure.."

"References - If not requesting exam waivers, five (5) references are required, of which, three (3) must be currently licensed P.E.'s. If requesting exam waivers, then nine (9) references are required with at least five (5) being currently licensed P.E.'s. The professional engineers can be licensed in any jurisdiction. The P.E. references not licensed in Texas must provide a copy of their current pocket card or other documentation to verify an active license. Board Rule §131.71(b) allows for a reference who did not work with the applicant to review and judge the SER. An applicant might ask any of the references that are familiar with the applicant to review and judge the experience. The reference shall mark the appropriate box on the reference Statement (Character and Review of SER only for Purpose of Reference Statement).
Follow the instructions on the back of the reference statement to request your reference statements. Send a signed copy of your SER to those references that will verify your engineering experience."

I note that the PE who has not worked with you can provide a reference without jeapardizing their integrity. The form asks them clearly the basis of their opinion. They can state the limited context under which they know you and that their opinion of you work is based solely upon review of your own comments in the SER.

If someone submits 5 PE's who they have never worked with and asks for exam waiver... apparently they have met the minimum requirement. Even though the entire process would be based upon statement from the applicant themselves, statement non-licensed individuals working with the applicant who have no obligation to the board and cannot be punished by the board, and PE's who simply sign that based on review of the paper it looks good. One only hopes that the board would excercize some judgement beyond meeting those minimum requirements. Otherwise the PE system seems a worthless excercize IMHO.

Brainstorm:
Family reunion?
Internet?
Church, library, grocery store, McDonalds?
Sorry I couldn't resist that bit of sarcasm. It is directed at the system, not at you. I think that anyone is wise to take advantage of whatever opportunities are available and explore what are the minimum requirements.... minimum effort necessary to meet the goal of licensure. I would do the same thing myself.

So the question boils down to what is the minimum required:

1 - If none of the PE's need to have to have any direct knowledge of your work, than find anybody that has a PE and willing to review your application....maybe family reunion is not out of the question. Maybe someone on the board would like to volunteer.

2 - If PE board will excercize some judgement and disapprove an application full of people you haven't worked with, then you would need to figure out some way to interact in more work-related environment with PE's. Perhaps that might involve volunteering to work on a small project with a PE. Maybe your company has customers or suppliers that you interact with very closely who are PE's and therefore have some direct knowledge of your work.

Sounds like PE board is a good place to start to clarify whether you need option #1 or #2.

 

[electricpete]

Trying to explore the angle a little more of what is expected from the reference: Here is the form the evaluator will have to fill out in for TX PE application:

"Reference Evaluation is: (check one)
__Character Only
__Character & Personal Knowledge of Work Described in SER
__Character & Review of SER only for Purpose of Reference Statement
1. How long have you known the applicant? ________
2. Are you related to the applicant? No Yes If so, how?
3. Was/is your relationship with the applicant Personal? Business? Please explain.
4. The Texas Engineering Practice Act states that a person seeking to obtain a license to practice professional engineering shall provide evidence of good professional character and reputation which, in the judgement of the Board, is sufficient to insure that the individual can consistently act in the best interest of clients and the public in any practice setting. Such evidence shall establish that the person is able to distinguish right from wrong, is able to think and act rationally, is able to keep promises and honor obligations, and is accountable for his/her own behavior. How would you describe the applicant's character and reputation?
5. Do you know of anything that would negatively affect the applicant's ability to practice as an independent professional engineer? If yes, explain
NOTE: The following questions 6-8 are designed to be answered by professional engineers, technical supervisors, or persons who have reviewed the engineering experience described in the applicant's SER. If this section does not apply to you please answer "Not Applicable".
6. What have you observed that convinces you that the applicant (has/has not) adequately applied engineering education, training, and experience in the practice of engineering?
7. Do you believe that the applicant's experience was sufficiently complex and diverse, and of an increasing standard of quality and responsibility, to provide sufficient professional growth for the applicant to be recommended for a license?
8. If you have observed the applicant in recent engagements, do you believe the applicant has reached a level of competency to be placed in responsible charge of engineering work in his/her discipline? "

First checkmark identifies very clearly the context of the evaluation.
Question 2 explores whether the reviewer is a relative.... interesting given your comment about family reunion. There is certainly nothing in the regs that says 1 or 5 reviewers can't be relatives. But the fact that the are obliged to disclose that relationship will certainly cast doubt about impartiality and probably for that reason relatives are your last resort. (Again I am under a wishful assumption that the board will excercize some judgement).

My final recommendation in absence of any clarification from the board: Focus your effort on finding some PE with some connection (however remote) to your current job. As I said, suppliers, customers, regulators, competitors. Maybe someone from a training class or industry/trade organization. At a minimum if you haven't worked with them, at least someone in the same industry who is familiar with the type of stuff that you do. That way their review has some extra credibility.

 

[BobPE]

I agree with electripetes idea of looking for PE's that do your subbed out work. Look for jobs that you send out of the company and get involved with them. I have vouched for project managers from industry that were runnung the jobs that I was working on.

I doubt you will find them at McDonalds though...lol....Althought I don't like the professional organizations for PE's, their meetings are full of PE's. If you attend these meeting you may find SANE PE's that are willing to work with you, you will also find ones that wont. It takes a little work, but I feel it is a very worthwhile process. You may not think so now, you may never think so even after you get it. But limiting yourself to being non licensed for no other reason than it is hard to get really isnt an excuse....

Another good place are trade expos. There is a Pump User Expo coming up in Cali. Use petes vendor approach and meet up with them there and work on some projects or meet other engineers there....

Any consultants working for you on engineering have to be licensed, you have to outsource some engineering. If not, make the next project outsourced and get some in to work with you....

I don't think of myseldf as the typical PE leanne, I hang around them all the time and to tell you the truth, I cant stand most of them....That is why I constantly try to get more engineers involved...THe process is good, just stale since most PE's like to think of it as a club....I think you can tell from my (non-likable LOL) posts that I do try and that it is not a club...

BobPE

 

[PSE]

For a (not insignificant fee in my case) you might be able to obtain a listing of RPE's from your state bureau. You then might find names of individuals you have encountered through the course of your career with which to work on developing recommendations. Or at the very least, find out that you have yet to work with or near any RPE during your career.

Regards

 

[electricpete]

Yex, Texas publishes that list as well. It is available free to all PE's. Not sure about non-PE's.

 

[electricpete]

The comment about McDonald's wasn't intended to imply there are lots of PE's working at McDonalds.

It was meant to humorously underscore that under TX rules, apparently your relationship with this person need not have anything to do with work. So it (apparently) doesn't matter where you come in contact with this PE.... perhaps extends to eating Big Mac's at adjacent tables? LOL.

 

[electricpete]

Re-reading the whole thing, I see the part I have overlooked in criticizing the system is that the PE must have knowledge of the person's CHARACTER (not necessarily their work). And if there really is knowledge of the person's character, then there is no reason to believe they have fudged the rest of the person's application.... we can take them at their word on their SER. So thinking about it that way I gain back a small measure of faith in the system.

So it appears that people (PE's) that you come in contact outside of work who somehow have knowledge of your character can also be considered. Mabye an engineering professor. Maybe a teammate on sports team. If you are active in church maybe there is church PE.

The questions about relatives and business relationships appear designed to flag those particular acquaintannces that might reason for bias.

 

[brad]

I second electricpete's last comment--as I was reading the string, it occured to me that I know of three PE's (including myself) who are active in my church. I can think of several non-PE's whose character I would unequivocally vouch for if asked. So, in all seriousness, look in your church/mosque/synagogue, or whatever other non-professional social settings you are active in.

My understanding when I went through the process myself was that it was a combination of both character and professional references. The justification for allowing non-PE's to evaluate the requestor is to allow for a valid review of candidates' work experience (in the event that few PE's work with the candidate). Essentially, make sure that there are some professional references, and if you only have one PE professional reference, get some PE's as "character witnesses".

Brad

 

[leanne]

The last few churches I've been a member of (moved 5 times in 3 years) did not have any PEs that I knew. In one church I new everyone - small country church & there were no engineers except me. A couple of people worked at the bank in town or the one 10 miles away in Commerce. A few worked at the school. A few had worked in sales positions. The rest were farmers.

Perhaps as I evaluate a new church home (since I've yet to move my membership from McKinney to a church in Indy), one criteria should be the number of PEs

 

[brad]

You've just got to move to Detroit. Around here, engineers are like flies on ****
Brad
(of course, there's probably better criteria for choosing religious affiliation than engineers)

 

[leanne]

That many engineers, huh? but Detroit? I want to retire in Florida...Detroit takes me further away...

My past criteria has been simply listening to my heart...

 

[PSE]

Bradh,

Know of any PE's on the west side of the state? I've been here for over 15 years and have yet to bump into one.

 

[brad]

I only know about three people total on the west side of the state, so I'm hardly the authority.
Brad

 

[PSE]

Well Brad,

You are the first PE I have encountered residing in Michigan. Supposedly there are 11,000 or so. I wonder if they do tend to be concentrated within the Detroit area. I am hoping to find a few just to see if paths have crossed during my work history. I can't get licensed without PE verification so I haven't even bothered to make the attempt.

Regards

 

[electricpete]

Hmmm, it's an interesting aspect. As explained above there is some good logic to requiring PE's to verify people's experience/character because it protects the integrity of the system. If anyone can serve as a reference for xperience/character, how would the board judge the character of the person giving the refernce?

I can also see the other side. It just doesn't seem right that someone should be restrained from getting a certification simply because they don't "know" the right people.

Interested to hear others' opinions... is the system broken? Is there a better way to do it which would protect the integrity but not penalize people for not having the right "connections" (associates)?

 

[brad]

Another suggestion--many engineering professors have PE's. I was fortunate to have good relations and to have been somewhat memorable to some of my professors. I had three (out of three I requested) offer to write me a reference if I needed one. In the end, I only had one prof give a reference (as I had other references with more opportunity to assess my professional background). If you made a (good) impression on any professors, you may want to look them up.

Brad

 

[leanne]

Since I'm starting grad school over (it's been over 7 years since my last grad classes), I may see if I can select at least a few classes with PE profs...It may well be my best option for getting the PE recs outside PE kinfolk (I do not want to use them as it smacks of what do they call it? nepotism?)

 

[TheTick]

I'm willing to bet PE boards in most states are aware of the problem industry exempt ME's and EE's have in finding references.

As far as references go, one of mine is one of my professors from undergrad. It pays to keep in touch.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

 

[leanne]

You don't see too many profs in EE with PE...Most of the PEs on staff at my alma mater were from the civil side (and, they no longer offer a CE degree plan) - I think Dr. Holman was a PE, but I'm not sure. I had one class with him - Thermo.

I don't recall any EE profs with PE while I was an undergrad...So, I went back the staff pages & here's what I found int the EE department: plenty of IEEE fellows, lots of PhD, text book authors, alas - no PEs in the EE department