Information on "Stabilant 22" 1

[thruthefence]

Stabilant 22 is product marketed as a "conductant" or contact enhancer. I am looking for anecdotal evidence of it's usefulness, or lack of same, by folks who have experience with it.

I am specifically interested in it's efficacy in resolving nuisance faults in aircraft avionics, such as those commonly "repaired" by "re-racking" the box.

I would also be interested in any instance of it's being included in the 'approved consumable' list of any airframe or avionics manufacturer's line level maintenance manuals, or CMM. ( I have seen some Bell Helicopter docs where it is approved )

I am not interested in starting a snake-oil debunking thread.

Thanks to all for any information.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

You don't want to get into a snake-oil debunking thread, yet you're asking people for their opinion on it? Hmmm....


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[thruthefence]

I guess what I mean is, I'm looking for technicians who have actually tried it, and what the results actually were.

It wouldn't be helpful to request information from folks who have never heard of it, and whose only experience with the product is perusing the included web page link. That was my intent with the 'snake-oil' comment. If you have had occasion to use it, under the circumstances stated ( repeat discrepancies that re-racking has tried before ) and had no luck, well that's real information. I guess we could call that sub set " experienced based de-bunking "

And we are talking flight line level stuff here, I know it won't fix bent or pushed back pins, ect. Common sense would surely dictate that the connector was inspected, and cleaned properly before any snake oil application.

thanks for your comment!

 

[BobM3]

See the enclosed thread on a machining website:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=171789

 

[VEBill]

"...learned about it in the very high-end stereo world."

That more-or-less says it all. What next - oxygen-free "uni-directional" cables for aircraft wiring?


Anyway - as you likely already know - one would have to be very careful NOT to use such products in aerospace applications unless and until it has been formally approved for such applications by the cognizant airworthiness authorities.

 

[thruthefence]

Do you concede that stereo ( and the recording industry ) pretty much use the same electrons, and they behave in an analogous manner, as avionics?

I am really looking for people that have used it, and can report on it's success, or lack of it. As I noted in the original post, BHT has it listed as a consumable, and at least one tech letter out on it.

While the comment on the nut-case stereo world gets a good laugh ( ever seen a tube pre amp that the chassis was gold plated? ) the guy I was speaking of was a ophthalmologist, medical device multiple patent holder,flew his own AMD-BA F-10, MD500, T-28(among others)and was about as sharp a guy as I have ever met. Not your average space cadet.

 

[waross]

Do you concede that stereo ( and the recording industry ) pretty much use the same electrons, and they behave in an analogous manner, as avionics?

I don't know about avionics, but electrons and magnetic fields seem to work a lot different in the audio field compared to the power field, when you compare the skin effect of audio cables with the skin effect of power cables.



Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[ScottyUK]

I have no experience with this specific product but an unhappy encounter with something very similar. Someone - probably a well-intentioned maintenance tech - applied contact lube into the socket of a withdrawable protection relay and from there on we developed high resistance faults to ground, tracking between poles of the DC supply and to ground, and eventual damage to the relay. If the area to which the product is applied can be very closely controlled so as to remain on the metal contacts then it may have merit but when it is a liquid then 'very closely controlled' is difficult. Aerosols are even worse.

It may prove an interesting experiment to spray a small pool of this material onto an insulating surface and apply a Megger test to the pool of liquid. The material we had problems was very conductive at 500V and blue arcing due to tracking was visible at 1000V.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[VEBill]

You say that you're just asking for experiences, but on the referenced off-site thread you posted, "...I'm a believer."

I hope you're not looking for an 'Amen'?

It seems to be fair-game to point out that the company's explanations of how the product works smell like snake oil.

For example: The electric field gradient (under some circumstances) could easily be higher between adjacent pins than across an open contact carrying a very low level signal. So (if the explanation were true) wouldn't the product short circuit adjacent pins?

Also, if the electric field causes the product to change, then wouldn't an AC field (combined with the product's stated very slow response time) result in no change at all?

Also, what if the signal on the unreliable contact pair is extremely low level and extremely low duty cycle? How many centuries would it require for the product to align itself?

Also, if the product takes time to align itself, then do you need to apply the product and then wait 12 minutes for it to start working?

No, the simplest possible explanation is that the product (or at least the explanation of how it supposedly works) is snake oil. Perhaps the product has a moderate pH level or some abrassive quality such that it accidentally cleans the contacts a bit.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Do you concede that stereo ( and the recording industry ) pretty much use the same electrons, and they behave in an analogous manner, as avionics?

From a physics standpoint, there's no need to concede as there's no argument... yes, they're the same. From a "golden-ear audio expert" standpoint, they're not even in the same universe (in more ways than one)... those guys make up their own physics.

While the comment on the nut-case stereo world gets a good laugh ( ever seen a tube pre amp that the chassis was gold plated? ) the guy I was speaking of was a ophthalmologist, medical device multiple patent holder,flew his own AMD-BA F-10, MD500, T-28(among others)and was about as sharp a guy as I have ever met. Not your average space cadet.

He may have been a sharp guy, but he was an opthamologist, not an electrical engineer... I would trust him to check out my eyeballs, but wouldn't go hiring him to offer expertise on wiring my home.

The simple fact that the product is tied to a "golden-ear" audio site speaks volumes (no pun intended), so the snake oil argument is pretty easy to make. Anyone who claims they can tell the difference in audio between 10' of $0.50/ft Romex and $500/ft oxygen free Litz wire in a supernova antimatter shield is a nutjob, so I'm not going to hold too much credence in what they say about a contact liquid.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[VEBill]

Amen.

 

[thruthefence]

As I said in a previous post, I'm looking for examples of actual in service use,and actual consumable product approvals by the component vendors, not theory. I did not want this to turn into a free for all, as in the practical machinist site. Opinions, even learned ones, are just that; without actual experience, I feel they are of no help. If this is the wrong venue to solicit such information, I apologize.

And my stereo guy, had a degree in Mechanical Engineering, as well as the medical degree.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

And my stereo guy, had a degree in Mechanical Engineering, as well as the medical degree.

And again I'll state, I wouldn't hire an electrical engineer to build a bridge, just as I wouldn't hire an opthalmologist (even one who was an ME in a former life) to wire my house. They may take some of the same math courses, but they're training are in two different fields.

We're not trying to antagonize you, we're simply saying you're probably not going to find any EE's here who use this stuff on any real-world devices, particularly one as safety-critical as an airplane. The claims are dubious, at best, with no real proof of any benefit (and plenty of reason to believe it will have a detrimental effect to circuitry over time).

I wish we could be more help, but you're asking people who often stake their jobs on sourcing the correct components to say they use a product with little to no perceivable benefit... it isn't likely to happen. I'm sure if you looked long and hard you'd find someone who sees a speed benefit in taping an apple to the back of their car seat, but without some scientific proof of the actual benefit few will copy the practice.

YMMV...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[thruthefence]

I was hoping to avoid a segue off onto the qualifications, or (lack of) of the guy who gave me a bottle of this stuff, nearly 25 years ago.He was merely the man I learned about it from.Heck, he may be squirting it into his lasik machine as we speak. And I am not trying aggravate anyone either. I Just thought (maybe) someone MAY have had some experience with this product, and could share that knowledge. Believe me, there is no shortage of people, lettered & otherwise, Who have never heard of it (prior to this thread) that are more then happy to put it in the category of Penis enlargement pills.

Having said that, I did cross post post this to an aircraft forum, got at least one response of the type I was hoping far. Used the product, had an opinion. That's the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

thanks for your time

 

[catserveng]

I have some limited experience with the product several years ago in marine diesel engine electronic systems. We had a technician who had recetnly left the Navy as a helicopter mechanic at NAS North Island, and he turned me on to the product to help with some nuisence problems we were seeing with low level signals. His experience in helicopter wiring harness connections made him a believer in the products value. We found it helpful in some of the applications I noted above, and used it for awhile, then ran out and was not able to find a local supplier.

Have used a product called Deoxit Gold for similar systems, was also introduced to this product by someone recently out of the Navy who had used it quite a bit. I have had enough good experience with it to always have a can in my service truck, Used per package directions, mostly on engine and generator control harness connectors I have seen improved system performance and a reduction in nuisence problems.

Here is website,

http://www.deoxit.com/

About 5 years ago I had a commercial vessel with three electronically controlled main engines that the engine room had been partially flooded, the vessel had to make a quick turn around, so after rinsing and cleaning as best we could, we used the Deoxit product (what we had available) on two of the three engines harness connectors, and the vessel left. The engine that had been rinsed and cleaned but not treated had several reported problems, the two engines treated had no reported problems. When vessel arrived at destination, port engineer got some more of the product, treated the third engine as we had treated the others, and we recieved no more complaints. Our shop did overhauls on all three engines two years ago, no reported problems with the harness's or connectors. Can't say the product was solely responsible but those of us involved have become regular users of the product.

Don't usually go for "miracles in a can" but this has seemed to reduce many of the nuisence problems I have run into in the last few years. And a number of my marine customers are regualr users. Don't get around avaiation much, so this probably doesn't truly answer your question, but we get around some pretty severe environments and we have been thru a large number of connector related issues over the past few years that appear to have responded positively to using this type of product.

Hope that helps.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

cat,

I (and I'm sure most others here) have no issue with a product claiming to deoxidize connections... it's a useful function and the chemicals to do so are straightforward. What we do have an issue with is chemicals like Stabilant 22 (or even the one you linked to, for that matter) being claimed to have magical properties that cannot be verified with any scientific process. If DeOxit and Stabilant 22 both offer a deoxidation capability, then fine, we'll use it for that purpose, but thruthefence appears to be looking for someone to verify Stabilant 22's other (less factual) claims in a real-world scenario... I don't think he's going to find that. If they both are working as a deoxidizer, then simply buy a deoxidizer and be done with it... don't pay more for a product that charges 5 times the price because it has mystical claims.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[thruthefence]

Tell you the truth, MAC, I haven't even read the 'scientific' claims on the Stabilant web site. And, if you have reviewed the rather uncivilized rants ( as I'm sure you have ) at "practical machinist" you surely know that I have used it, and have had good 'luck' with it. Now, maybe 'luck' is the operative word here; as you know, engineers don't trust to, or believe in 'luck'. That's why, and I believe I have repeatedly stated, I only wanted to hear 'anecdotal' reports from actual users; results good or bad, and indeed, as you stated "in a real world scenario". That's the world I live & work in. Goodness knows I've had the opportunity for a physics education ( on both sides of the argument ) over on the machinist's site, Little of which I can understand. I do thank you for your intrest in the thread.