International DT4900 Engine Knock 6

[gbubtzy]

Hi Guys,
I took my International truck with a DT4900 Engine to the dealership last month bacause of a check engine Light. 2 injectors were replaced. Last week Wednesday morning(5/16/07), the truck won't start. We towed it to the dealership. They said there was no engine oil in it. It was all in the diesel(gas) tanks. They gave me a diagnosis on Saturday (05/19/07)and suggested replacing the remaining 4 injectors or the O rings. i opted for the O rings because it was a cheaper option ($1100.00) compared to $3000.00+. On Monday morning (05/21/07), my driver picked up the truck and I travelled out of state. I got a call 4 hours later that the Engine has KNOCKED!!!. It was towed back to the dealership. I came back on Friday from my business trip and went to the dealership. They said a part failed inside the engine that was unrelated to the job they did. Replacement cost of engine $17,000.00. Could the O rings replacement in any way cause such a catastophic knock and should I get an attorney? Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[catserveng]

What the root cause of the "knock" will determine if their repair could have been to blame.

What likely happened, based on my experience, is that when the engine was pumping lube oil out of the engine into the fuel return and back to the tank, you were running the engine with a marginal lube oil sump level, and probably started scuffing bearings or pistons. The dealer made a repair based on the actual symptoms, and you put the truck back on the road. Under a heavier load, like interstate travel, the damage that was started during the low lube level continued and lead to the engine failure.

This is one possible root cause path of many, and much more info would be needed to make an actual determination. If a dealer is telling you need a complete engine replacement, have you asked for a written failure analysis report? This should be in the dealers capability because if this was a warranty repair, you can bet the factory would want to know exactly why the engine was being replaced.

So you might want to answer a couple of more questions before you involve an lawyer.

What internal engine part failed and caused the "knock"?

How did the part fail? Lack of lube, premature wear, overheat, etc?

During the injector reseal, was any inspection performed by the dealer to assure no other engine damage had occured from being "out of oil"?

Prior to the Check Engine Light and subsequent fail to start, were there any other indications of the internal engine problems, like a decrease in fuel milage or increase in lube oil consumption?

Do you do any predictive analysis like lube oil sampling? If so was there an increasing trend in any wear metals, or degradation of the lube oil?

I work for an engine distributor (not yours) and truck engines is part of the companies business, but not mine directly anymore. So my reply may sound a little like on their side, but before you have a lawyer start to call you may want to get some more and/or better answers. Because at our shop the minute an attorney calls he is directed to our legal rep., and I know a lot of other dealers do the same thing.

Hope that helps.

 

[gbubtzy]

Thank you Catserveng for your response. I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. I also want to sate that this engine is just about 200,000 miles and does only local deliveries, not inter-state.
1. What internal engine part failed and caused the "knock"?
I asked the service maanager the same question. By the time i came back from my trip, they had already dismantled the engine to determine what caused the knock. He showed me a small broken piece of metal called rotator return valve or something like that. He said what the part does is that it opens up the valve that lets the air out of the combustion chamber into the exhaust. Once this piece was broken according to him, there was no way for the combustion to let out air, as such, the melting of the piston.

2. How did the part fail? Lack of lube, premature wear, overheat, etc?
The service manager said the part broke. I asked him if he had ever seen this before. He said only once. This was never as a result of lack of lube or premature wear. this part should never have failed in my opinion if it can cause such a catastrophic damage. In fact, a friend told me that they could have broken this part to cover their bacck in the event of a law suit and their job.
3.During the injector reseal, was any inspection performed by the dealer to assure no other engine damage had occured from being "out of oil"?
I asked the dealer the same question. THey said the only thing they did not do was to remove the oil pan or bottom tray to check the bearings. This is because the engine has a protective mechanism that would not allow it to start if it tuns out of oil, which happened when we towed it in for the repairs. No, they did not perform any test. All they did was replace the O rings and gave the truck a clean bill of health again.
4.Prior to the Check Engine Light and subsequent fail to start, were there any other indications of the internal engine problems, like a decrease in fuel milage or increase in lube oil consumption?

None to my knowledge. This truck was always serviced and repaired by the dealership. Never had any issues with oil or gas consumption.
5.Do you do any predictive analysis like lube oil sampling? If so was there an increasing trend in any wear metals, or degradation of the lube oil?
No, we don't. There was no reason to as this truck was regularly serviced and well maintained by the dealership. that is the main reason why i feel something went wrong when the replaced the injectors the first time and the O rings a few weeks later.
Like I said, I would really like to know if an injector and O ring replacement could have caused this due to a lack of proper adjustment or setting. This occurence is catastrophic to my business and coughing out $17000 to replace an engine is no fun especially if the cause of the failure is a very very rare occurence according to the dealership.
Thanks.

 

[catserveng]

Was the part that failed called a valve rotator perhaps? It sits on top of the valve spring, and its function is to slightly rotate the valve every time it opens to help the valve and seat wear evenly. If it breaks it can change the tension on the valve spring, and can cause it to spit out the valve retainers, worst case it can cause the valve to drop and damage the cylinder.

Valve rotator breakage is not usual, but not unheard of. At 200,000 miles I would say it would be bit premature, rotators wear and normally stop turning, but don't usually "break". What is the condition of the other rotators? Are they showing signs of abnormal condition or wear? When the injectors were resealed was a valve adjustment performed? A possible cause of a broken rotator could be a misadjusted valve, but you would need to check with someone familiar with that particular model of engine as to the probable causes.

So if I understand you correct, the piston for that cylinder was damaged as well? Were other cylinders damaged?

I don't know the expected life of that particular engine, I would ask what the time or miles to overhaul is and see if the Dealer will prorate part of the repair, especially since it does all the maintenance.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[gbubtzy]

I am not sure if it is called a valve rotator, but it seems close. I will have to confirm and repost to this on Tuesday after they return back to work. According to the service manager, that part opens up the outlet to the exhaust. Once broken, there was no way to let out the heat from the combustion chamber, as such, the resulting knock of the engine.
It was only the piston of that cylinder that was damaged which caused a major rupture of the engine block with oil spill all over the highway. With the damage to the block, the dealership said the engine is totalled and needs replacement.
I will take some pictures of the part that broke, the engine block and post it online on Tuesday. Looking at the pictures may help you experts out there to determine if this was an adjustment error or just a mechanical failure.
Finally, I really appreciate you insight into this issue Catserveng. Thanks.

 

[gbubtzy]

The part that broke inside the engine is called a Cam follower retainer. I could not post the picture in here - it would not allow a copy and paste.
Here is a sumaary of the report from the Service manager.
The engine has #3 piston and cylinder failure. We inspected the engine. We removed the cylinder head and found #3 piston damaged. On further inspection, we found that the cam follower retainer had broken. The exhaust push tube was bent. This caused the piston to fail due to the fact that air could not leave the Piston and the injector still was fueling. The Piston failed to the point that the first ring cam eout and was found on the top of the ppiston. When this happened, the piston cocked , the skirt broke. The Piston skirt got caught between the rod and the block , cracking the block.

That is the report from the service manager at the Dealership. I am short of words and in $17,000.00 debt except I seek redress in a court of law.
Thanks.

 

[Fabrico]

"4900" is an IH truck model. Is that a DT 466 engine?

 

[gbubtzy]

Yes, it is a DT 466 engine.

 

[catserveng]

You might ask the dealer to get the factory rep involved. You can point out you have performed all required maintenance at the proper intervals at the dealership (if that is the case), and did not receive what you felt was "fair value". See if the factory has information that this may be a known issue, or as to the possible root causes of this part to fail and cause such a catastrophic failure.

That's what a factory rep is for, to have someone for the customer to go to the next level with.

 

[patprimmer]

The descriptions of some parts are still not entirely clear, but from what I can gather this type of valve train failure would normally be associated with an over rev and valve bounce. It might also be due to a damaged cam lobe, which could be the result of poor lubrication.

All the oil in the fuel tank is hard to explain.

Inoperative exhaust valve could result in hydraulic lock and if the driver ignored the progressive loss of power and drove it to destruction, it could break a piston, rod, block, head studs and combustion chamber.

Regards

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[Fabrico]

Other than a filter or drain plug coming out, I've never seen a crank case left dry. However, severe fuel dilution can add to or replace the engine oil. That's likely what he meant by its in the fuel tank. Unless under heavy load, even severe dilution is usually not fatal.

It won't hurt to try working with the dealer. But if the S/M has his ducks in a row it will be an uphill fight. His story sounds believable.

That is a durable and very popular engine. If all goes against you, you should be able to find a quality rebuilt for around $6,000 to $7,000 with a core charge of about $2,000. For a little more you could get a factory reman.

Although you did have it towed to them, I don't think you should pay for their teardown unless someone specifically told them to do so. If nothing else you might get them to budge on the R&R. Good luck with it!

 

[patprimmer]

Approaching hydraulic lock, especially after the rings started to fail would certainly add fuel to the sump.

Regards

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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[gbubtzy]

Thank you all for your professional reviews. I will decide over this weekend whether to bear this cost or to go to court. Over a period of six weeks, that truck was in the dealership three times for PM, 2 injectors replacement, a throttle failure (no power) which warranted replacing the entire gas pedal component ($1000.00) and now this. Total repairs in six weeks is close to about $5,0000.00 and now this!
Do you guys honestly think I have a case? If the general consensus and opinion on this forum is to take this in the stride and bear the brunt, I will do that; but if there is any reason for negligence or a manufacturer defect, I think I should get an attorney and seek redress. I appreciate you all.

 

[dicer]

Heres my take on this.

Back when I worked at an Engine dealership wrenching on diesel truck engines. If it came in for a drivability problem or didn't run properly.
Then normal procedure would be to diagnose the problem, checking boost, afc, doing such things as checking injectors for pressure, pattern etc. and doing the normal tune up things like running the overhead "setting valve lash" etc. Since I don't know what is required on your particular engine to remove and reinstall the injectors, it may include such things as removing the rocker assemblies and jake assemblies if so equipped. If the technition was new or some kid that they just hired from some school. They could have done something wrong during the assembly process, and forced the valve into the piston, either before or after initial start up, and that could have caused the stress on the follower. Personally I would say that since it happened so soon after the service job, it was most likely a goof up that they hoped would not manifest itself so soon.
And rereading your post, the supposed oil loss problem arised after they did the work.
I would not be so quick to pay them a thing, you need someone elese that knows those engines to check out what they are saying. And yes contact an attorney. It looks a bit fishy to me. And maybe another service outfit should be considered.

 

[catserveng]

Before you hire an attorney, try giving getting the factory rep involved for a couple of reasons. It gives the manufacturer an opportunity to make something right he may or may not know about, it let's him know his dealership has a dissatisfied customer (and if he is a good rep he'll want to know about that), and if it does go to litigation, it could help your case by showing you made every effort to let them make it right before you went the legal route. And after having been on the other side of the table in a few of those situations, my personal experience is that will usually work in your favor.

You might also check with another shop who is familiar with that engine and see if they have seen a similar failure to yours and if they know the root cause.

I have to agree with dicer, a failure so soon after service work is usually associated with that work, or lack of doing a proper job in assuring the engine is suitable to put back on the road.

Good luck

 

[gbubtzy]

Guys,
I got the International(Navistar) factory rep involved in this a few days ago after calling their customer service number and reporting what had happened. The gave me an incident number and said a factory rep will get back to me.
The factory rep from Navistar called me yesterday evening apparently after speaking with the service manager at the dealership. His conclusion was that they are not liable. A part failed in the engine - case closed. I asked him if he could give me a statistic or figure of this part failing in their engines. He said he has no such figures. I was on the phone with him for about twenty minutes - he would not bulge. It made me really mad. I asked him what he would do if he was in my shoes. He kept quiet with no response. I told him if this part was failing in their engine causing such catastropies, there should be a recall on this engine - no response from him either. Something fishy seems to be going on here and I am not happy with the response from this factory rep. H e concluded that there was no liability issue here - case closed.
I have taken a mechanic from a different shop to look at the engine and the piece that broke. His conclusion was that they messed up. I want to try and get a second opinion from another service shop next week monday before i decide on the way forward. International may have an issue with their engines which up to this point nobody has been willing to take the bull by the horn and go to court. In the event this goes to court and this case is succesful, there may be a recall that might save other owners this kind of dilema in the future. It is just that I will loose a lot of money for the period this case is in court and my truck is sitting if I loose the case. A case like this might stretch to a minimum of six months.

 

[dicer]

It may help to print out what we have said here as well.
What you need to do or should have done is document what the other mechanic said about them goofing up. And what needs to be done is to have other people that know these engines look at it as well and document what they say about it. Preferably you need them to go into detail about what would have to be done to cause the failure. I wish you could post pictures of the failed part on here. I would like to see good pictures of the lifters and what ever the rest of the valve actuating system looks like when all assembled in one of those engines if is possible. Maybe I'll find a local dealer and have a visit.

 

[McDowra]

There are a few things you need to know. The injectors in the motor are called a HEUI injector(Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection system).They use oil pressure to fire, without oil the engine can't run. Thats also why you have diesel in your fuel, the orings on the injector leaked the oil (3000+ psi) into the fuel (60psi). A very easy way to tell if orings are leaking is to look at the fuel filter. Engine oil turns the filter black which is a dead giveaway you have a leaking oring on the injector. I'm not there so i can't tell you what happened to your motor but here is a very common mistake people make on the Heui motors. When you pull the injector out some fuel and oil runs down into the cylinder, really not a problem you just vacuum it out. Now if you don't you will have a hydraulic lock and something has to give be it a part of the valvetrain or the connecting rod. Remember nothing just breaks, something always breaks it

 

[patprimmer]

McDowra

I have no direct experience here, only a working knowledge of the science involved and some details. I think you might have it about face.

Engines normally run maximum oil pressures of 60 to 120 PSI range.

Diesel injection has to overcome cylinder pressure at say 20:1 compression with enough in reserve to give a fast delivery with a good spray pattern.

I would think anything over 600 PSI might do it, but 2000 psi for diesel fuel sounds believable.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[gbubtzy]

McDowra above said " When you pull the injector out some fuel and oil runs down into the cylinder, really not a problem you just vacuum it out. Now if you don't you will have a hydraulic lock and something has to give be it a part of the valvetrain or the connecting rod. Remember nothing just breaks, something always breaks it"

This seems to be a HIT on the head of the Nail. This appears to be the most direct cause or possible explanation of what happened. Problem is it this information appears to come a bit too late as nobody could give a possible explanation of what happened other than a piece broke inside the engine. I got the loan to replace the engine financed last thursday. Now if what you are saying is a dead hit on the nail as I suspect, I might go back to 2 separate attorneys who refused to take on the case because the reports from the two diesel mechanics I took there did not have any technical possibility that could give the case a chance of winning in court.
I asked consistently from every mechanic that I know if replcacing the O rings could cause this. The answer was No because they do not know the architecture of this engine. McDowra seems to. I will go and confront the service manager with this information. I will appreciate if Mcdowra can point me to any technical information or documentation that could give my case a chance of winning in court. This information is simply GOLD from heaven. My case just seems to be back in contention. Mcdowra - I may have to contact the administrators of this forum to see how we can connect. You have made my day!