Issues with senior coworker, daily condescension 5

[JonEngineerGuy]

Hello,

I've hesitated from posting this, but have overcome the urge to get a feel for others opinions on my issue.

I recently began employment as a design engineer at a medium sized, OEM manufacturer specializing in custom one-off machinery. Design of this type of machinery requires a broad scope of experience, which is why I was hired as I have nearly 8 years of experience conceptualizing, designing, overseeing the manufacture of and running off/install manufacturing equipment. I'm thrilled to have found a company which specializes in this niche industry, as they are few and far between.

The one critical issue I've come across is attempting to work constructively alongside the senior designer, who's project I was brought onto when I started. I want to preface this by saying when I first started (roughly half a year ago), we bounced ideas off of each other, I jumped right into the project and laid plenty of design groundwork, all was hunky dory. As time moved on, the conversations started to veer to being asked to change things that I personally would have considered minor, things that the time it took to change the design costed more than what was originally chosen, such as slightly thicker material where I felt robustness was necessary. No big deal, I understand everyone has their preferences and wants things to be as cheap as possible. However it has fully evolved into 80% of conversations that are had between myself and this individual whether I'm asking for clarification since things aren't very well documented, or for a second opinion since I'm used to a collaborative environment, turn into an incredible display of condescension likely because this person is under a lot of stress (absolutely zero excuse for acting unprofessional, in my opinion.) Examples include being asked rhetorical questions loudly and having the most negligible of my mistakes clearly pointed out, multiple times a day.

A very generic example of a conversation would go like: "What are your thoughts on placing this bracket here? I decided it would make the most sense because of XYZ" to which the response would veer to "Okay, what is this bracket doing. Seriously, I'm asking you what is it doing here. Okay great, so you obviously know what the purpose is, why does it require these size screws?" or "why does it need to be this thick" or essentially anything that contradicts my design decision. Keep in mind, I have been at multiple companies where I've completed entire designs by myself which have worked great. I have also made tons of mistakes and know that I do not know everything, but it has gotten to the point where I fully expect to be contradicted on my decision if it is not exactly what this person would do themselves.

This project has a critical timeline and it has fallen behind, yet after discussions with management, they know that this person has saved them tons of money yet do not have to work with them directly in the design department, and their response to me mentioning he can be difficult to work with is "he is not the best with manners, but he's great at what he does." I know for a fact the project could have been completed much sooner without constant iterations and changing things, such as going back and reverting hundreds of screws to one size down, because they are 0.25 cents cheaper per screw, for another example. I've tried to stay strong and accept that there are differences in methods between each company, but this has taken a serious toll on my ability to feel confident in my work and my overall happiness and satisfaction in my career. I feel gaslighted in a sense, but again try not to take it personally and just get the job done regardless.

My question to the forums are: what would you do in this position?

 

[JohnRBaker]

How many of these machines are going to be produced? I ask, because if there are only a few, than doing things like reducing screw sizes just save a few cents seems to be a waste of time with little gain. If this is the case, you may have a point that you could take to management or at least use to counter these constant changes, because they're starting to sound like changes for the sake of changing, not to get a better result. And if your description of what's happening is accurate, it sounds like you're running into the 80/20 rule, where the last 20% of the design effort is going to account for 80% of the engineering cost. And if you've already gotten to where you could have taken what you have and gone into production, but this nitpicking is still going on, you may be suffering from that old adage about "Perfection being the enemy of good enough", which is something that as a machine designer myself, I always had to be careful that I wasn't falling into that trap myself.

Anyway, I feel for what you're experiencing, but we can only offer advice and guidance, but you're going to have to confront this yourself, either face-to-face with the lead designer, or by going to your management team because ultimately, if this project is not completed on time, it's they who'll 'resolve' the issue, and you may not like the outcome.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[BrianPetersen]

People who don't know how to work collaboratively, and whose personality interferes with their ability to do so, seldom change.

Polish up the resume and start looking. In the meantime, go with the flow. Where appropriate, document the changes and the time taken to do the change and what the rationale was for the change, and be prepared to present that to management in case you get called into one of the inevitable project progress and status meetings on account of the project being late and over budget. If you find a new job elsewhere in the meantime, you know what to do.

De-stress yourself. "Someone else's problem". If the labour required to change a whole set of drawings to change a bunch of screws from M10 to M8, "Okay, there's around 10 drawings affected, I can have the revisions done tomorrow". Project late or over budget because of this? "Someone else's problem". Could you stay late tonight in order to do that? "Sorry, I have to pick up my daughter after school".

Everyone makes mistakes. Fix the typo or omission or whatever and get on with it. Don't stress yourself over it.

 

[SWComposites]

Agree with the above,
- don’t make it your problem, and don’t make someone else’s issues cause for questioning your abilities,
- update resume and start working plan B (which might be another project or job within your current company).

Few questions,
Is the sr designer the one approving the design?
Or do you each have separate parts of the project that get approved higher up?
Is the sr designer giving you suggestions or orders to do things a certain way?
Have you considered ask few questions and just proceeding with your design?
What is the background/politics to this project? Is the sr designer stressed because he is behind schedule? Or over cost? Or something else?

 

[CWB1]

Genuinely not trying to be rude, but it sounds like you're annoying him with too many and ignorant questions. Its not an uncommon issue with juniors and often very wasteful of time.

Try speaking less. Work independently Mon-Thurs and make a list of questions/concerns. Review your list Thursday afternoon, pick your top few concerns, and share only the most important with him Friday morning. Always have a concept, sketch, or other attempt at solving a problem before voicing a concern. Please realize that if others agree with you on the big decisions, odds are good that they're going to agree with you on small ones as well so there's no need to discuss.

And FWIW, the best professionals often lack social skills so learning strategies to maximize your own communication/collaboration skills is important. Being upset, griping about their professionalism, etc wont help you work alongside nor learn from them. I recommend reading Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and a few similar books, listening to them on audio helps get through the duller portions.

 

[monkeydog]

Could it be, that management has asked/told the Sr engineer to train you for the products, eventually taking on a project on your own?
I see the response to your question more as "did you think through" the design, completely, what is the rational for the thickness, is it over designed? Are the screws adequate?
I could be off base here, but people also tend to train people the way they were trained also.

 

[rb1957]

ok, I'll take a different tack (it's amazing how often I do that ! ... wait, no it isn't)

I read your typical conversation. Out of any context my reaction might be much the same. You say "what do you think about this bracket?" seriously (without any context) my reaction may well be "it's a very nice bracket" ... I don't know much about it ... what loads, what fabrication choices, etc. You say "it's in the best location". ok, then anywhere I suggest to move it to is less optimum so why move it ? maybe I have other insights to you and "that is a terrible location for this reason." ... but maybe you've already considered that and addressed it some other way.

How differential towards him are you ? Maybe (and maybe because of cultural reasons) you are being too differential. I get that a lot. I say "please talk to me directly"; "please don't hang on my words. If I'm spouting off on something like I have clearly misunderstood some aspect, interrupt me ! Don't let me take you down a garden path, only to say well that was a waste of time".

How much have you learnt ? how senior a position ?? Are you coming to this guy to "bless a design" or should you start the process with his input ? we do that a tonne ... a junior designer runs with a design and we "bleed" (red line mark ups) all over design, and then the design hits the floor and the bleeding starts again ('cause he overlooked a tonne of details ... but that's a different story.

It seems to me that he is the "expert" (and we all know the definition of an "expert" ... something to do with a drip under pressure) and you're learning from him. You say you do custom one-offs ... that's a very difficult market to be in, as every job will have different design constraints and influences (and that also makes it really interesting). I think you need to either ...
1) show the expert how much you've learnt "I wanted to put the bracket there for these reasons" (and not "because it's the best place for it"). Use previous designs as a guide, and
2) get the expert's input early on (we have this project to complete ...), and as your confidence in yourself grows add your ideas (we have this project and I thought of this approach, similar to the previous XYZ project).

Everyone is different and nobody should be in a workplace where they fell demeaned. If someone tells him his conduct is inappropriate, then he should "man up" and say (maybe with a sigh) "ok" . The most we can hope for (realistically) is that the worst of his behaviour will change ... he'll relapse (particularly under pressure) but if he doesn't change then "sorry you need to go ... you are exposing the company to a "workplace safety" charge".

And his side of things ... I think either he's confident in himself, and wants to impart his knowledge onto the next generation; or he isn't confident and feels threatened (and so his behaviour will be very different). You need to figure out which.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[Sparweb]

Without trying to give rude behaviour a free pass, I'll try to be devil's advocate.
Is your senior calling you out in public, or in private discussions? If there is some privacy, then you don't need to be embarrassed about it.
Is there anything riding on either changing your design, or standing your ground, other than the material work? If there is no subsequent escalation, then the intent of the questions might not be intended in any way to cause trouble.
Is your senior explaining his/her point clearly when challenging yours? If you're getting a coherent and detailed reason for their objections, then this person might actually be seeking a meeting of the minds, not a battle.

I can see a small possibility that your senior has adopted this strategy to deliberately challenge you, because he sees himself as a mentor, and is using the technique he thinks will work, or instead the only mentorship tools he knows. If it's really nothing more than the Socratic method applied to engineering, then recognizing what's going on should help you accept it. And maybe benefit from it. In fact even if it's not deliberate, you can benefit from learning how to manage critical evaluations.

Not everyone was trained and raised in the school of making nice. Some people were, in fact, taught in the exact opposite manner. I have some habits left over from working with a mentor who worked that way. I usually didn't mind. Some of it rubbed off on me, inevitably. It's viewed as bad habits when seen in me, and I have to accept this flaw.

In summary, what is different between you and your senior?

Expectations.

If you are expecting to work one way, and your senior is expecting another, that could account for most of the aggravation. Just food for thought. I don't seriously think I have enough information to judge it one way or another, but since the tendency is for people on an internet forum to bash the bad guy, I thought I could take a go at understanding the bad guy. OK now y'all can bash me.

 

[geesaman.d]

Sounds like this co-worker has minimal social skills. Because he has shown value to the company in his role, this is not the first and will not be the last time this is allowed to persist.

I like the idea of bringing as few topics to him as possible. He's clearly set up his world to avoid discussion.

It seems you diverge with him on cost vs. robustness - and management likes his way (right now). Can you align with this new philosophy? Is it clear why things are being done as they currently are? Can you find similar cost reduction opportunities? Ideally you can deliver the same value to the company but without the attitude. That will make him redundant.

We had a guy like that who was an absolute ass to people sometimes (often) but management was smart enough to keep him separated from the other engineers. He almost got fired several times over the years.

David

 

[ctopher]

From my experience, they don't last long. He will have his time.

Chris, CSWP
SolidWorks
ctophers home

 

[dvd]

If these same issues follow you from job to job, then look within. Otherwise, why waste your time - find something new.

 

[SWComposites]

where did the OP go???

 

[JonEngineerGuy]

SWComposites,

To answer your previous questions:

Yes, the sr. designer gets the final word on all aspects of the design. I have disagreed with one critical area that I believed was not structurally robust enough, and was shot down after multiple attempts at trying to make it stronger. Note that this was a combination of elements for which we don’t have the software or allowable time to actually prove out, so his rule of thumb won over mine.

Yes he is giving suggestions on how to do things. I’ve been following but trying to implement best practice based on my own extensive experience in this field.

Yes he is very stressed due to being behind on this project. I thought I’d mentioned that but I guess not. I was brought on to help get this done in time. But he has continued to be disrespectful towards my suggestions and during our conversations half of the time, and impartial the other half.

 

[rb1957]

ok, wow.

two professionals disagree ... pretty typical.
If this design feature is "critical", then that does sound like a hill to die on. What are the consequences of failure ?
Ok, maybe you can't do the detailed analysis to show it good (or not), then you're left with opinion. And you couldn't convince him your opinion was more valid than his ... little surprise there. I suggest you try to understand his point of view and why he thinks your suggestion is unlikely. I hear this as you think something will happen, some load will get induced, and he doesn't. Is it possible to investigate on the prototype ?

The project is late and he is "highly stressed". So I think he's unlikely to be responsive to suggestions that the design needs to change (to make it later). Possibly he sees something of what you're suggesting and is hoping (against hope ?) that it doesn't happen ?

You have "extensive experience" and this experience seems to be new ground to you ? ... you've had a lucky career !

You like the job ... learn what you can (including how not to be an a$$hole).
Or if it is intolerable, find a new job.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[JonEngineerGuy]

rb1957,

The consequences are quite severe (aluminum extrusion frame essentially disassembling itself under 2+ kip held by a few t-nuts under friction) but I don't mean to stray from the original content of my post.

I have dealt with coworkers who are very stubborn, or have issues communicating, but something about this is a whole different beast and I'm unsure why it affects me so much. I've started to look past the lack of productivity with blind faith that this person's experience is worth learning from for all they ask me to do. But it's this strange nature of being loudly scolded when I least expect it. It's as if weeks will go by and I think we are collaborating nicely, and when everything is running smooth, they will loudly scold and question my abilities of my role for the whole office to hear in a tone that sounds like they haven't slept in weeks over even a simple question. Then proceed to have cheerful conversations with other coworkers shortly thereafter.

I'm starting to believe it's just their way of manipulating and they are most likely not going to change, as others have mentioned on here.

Edit: I now see the asshole part of the paragraph. I'm a firm believer that not being an asshole is as much of a prerequisite as being able to tie your own shoes in order to have the privilege of working in a high degreed, high paying job such as in our field of engineering, and this is something that should have been learned early on in someone's life. Unfortunately that is simply not the case at a lot of firms. Lack of communication skills is one thing but cruelty or domineering, and continuing to do so after being made aware of it by others, is simply a glaring case of not having the emotional intelligence required to work in a professional setting.

 

[rb1957]

ok, the issue seems important. is there a section of your code that you think the design doesn't comply with ? could you bring this to the attention of the inspector (possibly without committing career suicide) ? can you explain your opinion with math ? is the "unplanned rapid disassembly" load foreseeable, practical ? Is there no-one you can explain your fears to ?

I feel your pain. I've had (I'm sure we all have had) very stressful periods in my past (and future ?). Sometimes they had to be suffered through. For myself I found rugby as an excellent balance ... find something that gets you of the "bad" place you feel, if only for a short time.

As they say ... know when to knuckle down, when to walk away, or when to run.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[mfgenggear]

Ask the question before starting the drawings. And do as your told. He is the lead. Just docu.ent every thing.

 

[telecomguy]

I'm not the best at communication so I'll admit I'm not sure how I would handle this. But have you directly tried to communicate to him how his tirades make you feel? Or maybe just ask him to be more respectful of your opinions? That's definitely out of my nature so not sure how that plays out. But I've listened to this guy on youtube (

https://www.youtube.com/@jeffersonfisher/shorts)

and tried to implement some of his approaches in my communications. A few have stuck with me because I see the difference in the way conversations go. Might take a look.

<tg>

http://xdi.me

 

[RF-ME]

my thoughts are

- Don't allow someone's rude/abrupt approach influence you, take a step back, reflect on whether there is something you can change to get a better outcome for your company and yourself (in terms of adjusting how you work/interact with this person, then try to implement. there is so much to learn/experiment about how to work with people to get the best out of a situation. In my career, I have learnt that there are plenty of adults that are not able to reflect on their behavior and how it impacts others (or simply don't care), so as pathetic as it is, I basically manage them as I would a child, when they say something rude, I discard the emotion like I would a 2yo throwing a tantrum (but the trick is to still listen as the technical aspect of what they are saying might be relevant) and you still may be able to learn, add to your own pool of knowledge.

- as hard as it is, try not to take it personally, again, try to step back and look at it objectively. imagine you were the third person watching the coversation. dont try to 'win' the conversation...

- you don't have to like someone to work with them / learn from them.

- you need to decide whether its going to be an environment you can learn from, whether the company is going to support you enough, etc. based on this you need to decide whether its worth the pain of dealing with the 'big personalities' or whether you are better off moving on. sometimes having a plan can help you manage the day to day pain. i.e. im going to stick this out for 24 months, learn as much as I can, then reevaluate. it can take the angst out of the day-to-day.

- if you are overridden on a decision, i.e. he gets the final say. for the love of god, document it, date it, sign it. if its not in writing, it doesn't exist, cover you arse!

props for putting the topic up for discussion, you are right to treat it seriously, we so often just expect people will be level and professional, but interacting with colleagues can sometimes be the most challenging part of showing up to work....

i know a lot of the above is cookie cutter statement, but I use them to regulate myself when someone has been rude to me. jocko willinks book - leadership, stratergy, tactics helped me on this sort of thing also.

anyway, hope some of that helps, or at least gives you something to weigh your own opinions against.

 

[JonEngineerGuy]

Thank you all for the suggestions and for sharing your own experiences and techniques when dealing with difficult people. I’m going to continue working and learning as much as I can, and when he gives me attitude I’ll just continue trying to ignore it, but will start looking elsewhere just in case.