LEED design vs. regular design fees (Civil) 2

[mistermopar]

I'm curious to see if any of you have any rules of thumb for Civil fees on jobs incorporating LEED. Green building in my area is really just coming of age, in fact we're just receiving our first request for a green proposal. Having just obtained my LEED GA, I myself am green in experience in this area!

In this particular case, an architect is the LEED project manager, and would be assigning us the site credits.

For non-green jobs I've heard other engineers quote several rules of thumb such as 4-5% of construction cost. Any ideas for similar rules of thumb regarding basis of civil engineering fees for LEED projects? Or do most of you just go with hourly rates?

I've searched around, but not really coming up with much off the net. Thanks for any help!

 

[Trackfiend]

I'm in the same bay albeit a slightly different boat. I'm a credentialed LEED GA and am about to take the LEED AP BD+C exam on Monday (03/15). To date, I've worked on two separate LEED v2.2 (Silver) projects incorporating mainly sustainable sites credits. We've sort of run into the same problem in that we're trying to learn how many hours should be included for the analysis and design of LEED project elements. For one project, I spent over 40 hours pursuing a certain credit only to find out later (via info from the client) that we couldn't attain said credit.

We're actively pursuing other LEED projects and so far it seems that we are simply adding in the extra hours into the proposal. It seems that this foray into LEED is too new and we have too little experience to actually put a percentage on the extra cost. I also beleive that this is new to the client as well and future clients will have to understand the increase in fees due in part to the A/E's working their way through the LEED process. I've talked to a few other peers and it seems that they have been burned in the past by putting in the extra hours for the LEED process only to lose the job to a competing firm that underbid them. The competing firm then loses any sort of profit once it realizes the effort it takes (meetings, online portal, coordination with contractors) to finish out the LEED submittal process.

I think it will take some time (at least down here in the South) for both the A/E firms and contractors to grasp the scope of work involved with LEED. And by that time, another standard (or agency) will be the darling of the market. Good luck with your estimates.

 

[brandoncdg]

We are about to meet for our largest job to date which is also going to be LEED in Downtown Los Angeles. What role does a civil have in LEED projects?

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[Trackfiend]

"We are about to meet for our largest job to date which is also going to be LEED in Downtown Los Angeles. What role does a civil have in LEED projects?"

A civil engineer can contribute to several credits in the sustainable sites (SS), water efficiency (WE), and materials and resources (MR) categories. If your dealing with LEED 2009 (v3), then take for example SS credits 6.1 and 6.2. Both deal with runoff mitigation and treatment which should be right up your alley (unless of course you deal mainly with the structural side of your discipline). Hopefully for your project you will have a design charrette (fancy name for meeting) that will help allocate team members to specific roles in achieving certain credits. Once you look over some of the requirements of the credits involved, then you should have a better grasp of what is within your experience and what isn't.

Good luck. There's a learning curve invloved and I'm still climbing it.

 

[francesca]

Autodesk has a webinar about LEED credits for Civil Engineering. You'd be surprised how many credits you can get.

 

[Hoagie]

you really can't apply any maxims to the leed program for civils...its more of an 'order from this menu'-type arrangement. the architect or the managing leed ap will issue (to you) the credits that you will be responsible for. from this you will provide templates and documentation for each credit or prerequisite. the arch's ap will deliver the application to Washington, monitor it, and keep everyone on schedule.

unless you are providing expert-level design (constructed wetlands, innovative water/ww tech, commissioning, etc), then you won't see any profitable work items. i've worked on several large leed rated buildings and the fees were all less than $5K for general civil-site design…. most of which was meeting and coordination time. small potatoes, really. the real money is in commissioning.

 

[brandoncdg]

Very strange, yes we are doing the grading side of things. Runoff mitigation is a must do in California especially in Los Angeles where it's even more strict. Now I am curious how LEED is related to something we already have to do. Our charrette is hopefully next week, so I still have time to briefly get myself some knowledge.

I was under the assumption that civils had no say in what goes into a LEED building, and it's the architect who comes up with what to do, and we may have to figure out how to make that work with the other consultants.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[brandoncdg]

For those that are Civils doing LEED in states outside of California, you don't have to already follow those standards to begin with? I was just reading the prerequisite, 6.1 and 6.2 standards and these are generally what we already have to do on our plans in the Los Angeles area.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[beej67]

For SS6.1 and SS6.2, some regions of the country basically get them automatically if you do your design properly, and the only hard part for LEED is putting together the documentation that proves it. Can be a day or two of work. For areas of the country that don't have the kinds of soils or the kinds of local standards that already meet it, 6.1 and 6.2 can be very difficult to get, particularly the volumetric restrictions on the quantity credit. Varies by how developed your parcel is, and what your official "LEED Boundary" is too, because including a bunch of adjacent undeveloped land that isn't to be developed ducks you under the 50% impervious threshold and changes the standard you're shooting for. That's the kind of thing you want to get pegged early in your charrette, because that boundary effects other subs with their submittals as well. If you're not in an area of the country with strict stormwater rules, then the real estate necessary to meet the credit isn't worth the cost of the point, usually.

It's hard to budget LEED support as a lump sum unless you know in advance which credits you'll be going for. We like to exclude it from our fixed fee and include it as an hourly line item.