Liability

[AAlpha]

Hi,

I am considering a new job. It is a manufacturing position for a small volume production project for which the customer requires a P.E. sign off. The product is designed by the customer. The P.E. sign off is for the manufacturing and testing of the product only.

I remember reading somewhere, that it is necessary to be included (named) in the liability insurance of a company to be covered. During the interview I was told that it is not so and that all liability would be covered by the company without my name on the policy. Is that so?

Thank you for any input on the subject.

 

[rbulsara]

If you did not design it (or reviewed, understood and agreed to it), do not sign it. It is that simple. What your would be employer is asking is illegal and unethical.

A lot has been discussed on the subject here. If you still want to risk your career, its your choice.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[AAlpha]

Rbulsura,
thanks for the quick response. There is no P.E. signature in question for the design. The customer designed the product (and is responsible for the design). The customer is just looking for a responsible person to be in charge, sign and seal for the manufacturing and testing of the existing design.

 

[moon161]

Note, not a PE yet.

I draft for a medical contract manufacturer. Customer does the product design & effectiveness/safety verification. Our responsibility is mold, tooling & process design & qualification, MEETING CUSTOMER SPECIFICATION. In medical devices, the device manufacturer is responsible for qualifying suppliers and holding us to their standards.

If it kills someone, and we made it to customer spec, we're OK.

So, if you sign off on you work (mfg process development & qualification) you're signing off on your work. If you sign off on other's work (their design that you did not review or supervise) then you are being used as a chump.

 

[rbulsara]

I a now confused. So what is a PE sign off? Playing around with words, does not change the facts. It is like trying to talk a cop out of giving you a ticket when pulled over for speeding.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[MintJulep]

What exactly is a "sign off is for the manufacturing and testing of the product"?

What does it mean? What is it's value in engineering terms?

Regardless of any actual or potential liability your name will be DISCOVERABLE.

In the event of some nasty lawsuit you can absolutely count on being named a defendant or co-defendant.

Even if you are not found liable you will incur costs and inconvenience defending yourself.

Are the rewards worth the possible risks?

 

[AAlpha]

Just to clarify, I am not questioning the signing or not signing. Let's assume it needs to be signed and sealed and there would be not question about it. Now, how do I have to protect myself, is it true that a company's (employer's) liability insurance automatically covers a P.E. or does the P.E. explicitly need be mentioned in the insurance policy as being covered? I know it's probably more a question for a lawyer, but is anybody in a similar situation and knows the answer?

 

[tygerdawg]

Not intending to be harsh about this, but this appears to be nonsense or Managerial Ignorance. I've spent my entire career in manufacturing and never never never had to "sign off" anything as a P.E. regarding manfuacturing processes etc.

Once, I had a contractor-hack designer who was AutoCAD-ing a structural steel machine support and he wanted me to stamp it. No way, Jose: I didn't design it. Period, end of story.

Now if what the company desires is some sort of qualification about the manufacturing process, then there are plenty of tried and true Manufacturing Engineering methods and tools out there to make sure processes are capable, safe, reliable, and produce the product to desired quality levels. None of which need a P.E. to approve anything.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[rbulsara]

My understanding is that you have to be named in the policy. In fact, the premium on company's insurance policies depends on the qualifications of the named PEs.

It is very simple to find out, call any agents offering professional liability insurance in your area and ask them. IN fact ask the agent that service your company. You don't have to ask a lawyer.

Since your employer is telling you otherwise, I would suspect everything else they say.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[TenPenny]

If you read the original post, the CUSTOMER is requiring a sign off for MANUFACTURING and TESTING only.

In other words, it is the customer's requirement that a PE signs off on the manufacturing and testing, and therefore, the liability does not include design or design review.

 

[rbulsara]

I did. The response remains the same. It does not matter who requires it. You may want to think about as to why does the client requires it and not just trust the real "designer".



Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[Ron]

Whether you design it or not, if you sign and seal something, you're responsible for it.

As for the insurance, if your company is licensed as an engineering company or if you qualify the company as an engineering entity, then likely you will have some coverage from their professional liability policy (assuming they have one!). If the company is not licensed as an engineering entity, then they are likely not complying with typical state laws and you are practicing as an independently licensed engineer...and you should have your own insurance if that's the case. Otherwise, ask your company to name you as an additional insured on their policy.

 

[DWHA]

I would ask my attorney. That is what they do. I value my sleep, and I would sleep much better having my attorney review my employment criteria with the company.

 

[Sparweb]

Okay let me try to split these hairs.

A PE designing and stamping something can ensure that the correct material was selected for a part by checking the drawing's bill of materials. He can then inspect the part and assure himself that it looks like the correct material. Then he can also check the purchasing records to see if the material traceability data leads to records of the correct material being supplied to his company (a document that may have been signed by the manager of the steel mill).
That sounds like enough due diligence to me.

If the part also requires a specialized test before it goes out to the customer, then you are talking about a sub-contract to get the test done. Those carrying out the test (load test, calibration, vibration, or whatever) will receive their instructions, carry out the test according to their company-specific procedures, and if it passes, offer a report of the results. That report may be signed.

Parts of the world are now on the cusp of making the original design agency investigate all of the practices of their sub-contractors, right down to how often all the micrometers are calibrated. This works for Boeing or Ford because the scale of the business and the value of the products justifies it. At the other end of the scale, it is unreasonable to ask for a ROHS certificate from Radio Shack.

You (the original post) have to figure out how much liability you are taking on as the provider of that sub-contracted service or product. Read the fine print. It may be a 20 page contract or a handshake. Also, the kind of business your client is in, the value of the product, and the level of risk and safety involved in your part of the process determine a lot of the liability YOU take upon yourself.

Since you are a PE, an even better source of information about this stuff is the people in your professional organization (state/province/county wherever you are). This is something they are asked regularly! And they write guidelines about it too... Hint hint.



Steven Fahey, CET