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lost sciences and technology

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jmw

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Jun 27, 2001
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Moving home is a traumatic experience, especially if the SO has anything to do with it, but it does have some collateral benefits such as the discovery of long lost items and books.

Just such a book has resurfaced, "The Sphinx and the Megoliths" by John Ivimy.

Now in this forum there have been many threads about re-inventing techniques thought to be forgotten, about the Romans and their lost arts of concrete making and so on.

This book proposes as a concept that could as easily fit the facts as any other concept, that the megaliths like Stonehenge in Wiltshire, and the Pyramids, are all based on a shared lost science.

There is a lot of stuff that needn't concern us but two observations stand out.

The first is the presumption that mathematics and geometry must have been much further advanced than we suspect and that much of this knowledge was lost.

The example given is the construction of an aqueduct by an engineer working for Polycrates in about 540BC using teams of men digging from both ends and meeting in the middle - something not thought possible, based on literary evidence, until the mathematics of the second century AD.... the aqueduct was 900 yards long and the centres were only 2 feet apart when they met in the middle....

But of much more convincing nature is the idea of source maps. Not the more recent claimed Chinese voyages of 1421 and apparently expunged from the records (there is a thread on this somewhere) but source maps dating back much earlier when it was evident that some civilisation was able to accurately find both latitude and longitude (to within 0.5[°] and produce accurate world maps. More accurate than until very very recently.

In much later centuries the maps produced are very much less closely related to the real world because of the lack of technology or science to make them and the inability to accurately locate the position of the navigators.

Most convincing is the Piri Re'is map (based on earlier source maps) which shows the Antarctic in accurate detail but overlapping Cape Horn.

It means that in that time, some civilisation had the ability to accurately measure both latitude and longitude and project its power or interest globally. The longitude method was tedious and time consuming but depended on a sophisticated knowledge of astronomy and eclipse predictions... (of stars eclipsed by the moon, for example). These maps evidently showed the entire globe in great and accurate detail including east and west coasts of North and South America, the Pacific and Antarctica.

The Pire re'is map shows Antarctica but overlapping Cape Horn. This is thought to be an error in the original maps and acting on the assumption that there was a confusion, when the explorers' data was translated (referenced with the home data on star angles), that the 80th parallel was mistaken for the Antarctic circle (66[°]33'), when redrawn the coastline and features prove highly accurate - except.... they show river tributaries where there are Glaciers today... and this dates the source map to around 4000BC.

Fascinating stuff.

The importance is that it very much tends to support the idea that there are many lost arts and skills and that we have a mistaken view of the last few hundred years as being the true age of discovery when they are in fact an age of re-discovery partially stimulated by a selection of maps which trace back to the original source maps (with distortions from mis-understanding the previously advanced state of spherical trigonometry such as using a square grid where a rectangular should have been used.. there is a lot of confusion from the diffeent projections used and the handicap of the "modern sailor" was a lack of a suitable system to determine longitude exact by lunars or chronometers later on. The ancients, it seems, could have used star angles for eclipses.

All fascinating stuff and one wonders what other arts and skills are missing to us and how, had they not been lost, they might have influenced the path we did follow to where we are today.


JMW
 
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jmw,

It is easy to overestimate the technological sophistication of ancient civilizations.

Some of the more fascinating ancient achievements are actually work-arounds for the lack of technology.

For example, city walls with massive bricks (the Incas, ancient Mycenae...

[ol]
[li]Damn foreigners visit your city, rape your women, steal your gold and silver and burn your buildings.[/li]
[li]You build a wall round your city.[/li]
[li]The damn foreigners return. They yank out a few bricks, and your wall crashes down. They rape your women, steal your gold and silver and burn your buildings.[/li]
[li]Either you invent mortar, or you build your city walls of bricks massive enough that they cannot be yanked out of place by people you are shooting arrows at and pouring boiling oil on.[/li]
[li]The surviving damn foreigners return home, without your stuff, still feeling horny.[/li]
[/ol]

Molten lead was used sometimes to hold bricks together, but people stole the lead.

Stuff that is difficult today with machinery and expensive construction workers, can be easier to do if there is a lot of time, and your workers are numerous and cheap, even if you have a cash economy. The Incas and the early ancient Egyptians had no money. They were a command economy.

Stonehenge was built in stages, over several thousands years. I can see no evidence of advanced techology. '

As far as aqueducts are concerned, perhaps some mining engineer can comment on this. Accurate surveying is possible with crude tools. If you are digging a tunnel in the vicinity of someone else digging a tunnel, is it possible to hear them and tell what direction the sound is coming from?

Critter.gif
JHG
 
drawoh,

Regarding the last question - yes, it is certainly possible and was practised by the miners digging under the WW1 trenches, who would listen for the enemy doing the same thing. The scale of some of the earthworks and the ordnance placed within them is all the more impressive consdiering the conditions they were constructed in - some contained 20 tons of explosive and left craters over 300' in diameter.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 
The aqueducts actually did involve a bit of engineering. Of course, engineering at the time was based on experience. Things like how big of an arch to support how much weight, and the area of an an aqueduct required to carry how much water were determined by trial and error. Good recordkeeping allowed them to make gradual improvements - not unlike how engineering works today.

A Roman, Julius Sextus Frontinus, actually figured out that the aqueducts weren't delivering as much water to Rome as they were designed to deliver via calculation & went looking for the reason. What he found was farmers were siphoning water out of the aqueducts to water their fields without authorization. His book "De aquaeductu" is the earliest Roman hydraulic engineering works to have survived.
 
I need to post a correction here. The map drawing on source maps and showing Antarctica is actually the Oronteus Finaeus map of 1532.

DrawOh, there is probably much to what you say - technically, though I suspect that we should not mistake the crudity of some of the tools for a lack of mental sophistication in devising and using them, but the problem isn't just the technology but the society - a point made about the building of Stonehenge, and it cannot be considered an isolated example considering the nearly 1000 megalithic monuments in the British Isles (including stone circles egg circles etc ) and the similar monuments in Britany (including the column at Carnac in Britanny that was 7 times as massive as the largest of the Stonehenge stones....) is that this was not possible logistically or culturally by the indigenous people without some significant re-appraisal of those peoples or without considering the possibility of an external wider influence.
There is more to puzzle out here than reverse engineering the methods based on our current knowledge of engineering.

Then too there seems to be little evidence of precursor developments.
Nothing locally to represent a learning curve that lead from an early prototypical site to the completed sites that survive to this day....

Then too perhaps we mistake sophistication for crudity.... whatever the purpose of Stonehenge, it has survived 4000 years.... perhaps, given the choices between building in wood (and some wood circles have been found such as at Woodhenge) and making the massive effort to build in stone, not just in stone, but in such massive stones that subsequent civilisations have not interfered with them in any way.... suggests they were built to last. There was simply a change in materials not concept.

Many of the Roman ruins and ruined medieval castles have been reduced to ground level by people carting away the stones to build houses and cattle sheds etc.

Nobody dismantled Stonehenge and carted it away or any of the other megaliths that survive. So one key feature is that they were designed to last. Designed also to be impervious to the effects of nature.....

Nor are the indigenous peoples credited with having the necessary astronomy or math skills to set out the alignments... and no real incentives to develop them either in the environment nor at their stage of development.





JMW
 
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