Marketing in our Musical Chair World 3

[JAE]

It seems that in recent years there has been an increase in the frequency of engineering professionals changing jobs, either volunarily or involuntarily. This got me to thinking about the ethics of marketing your firm to others based upon past project experience.

A firm might do a large project and put a team of professionals on that project for its duration. Some time after the project is completed, some, or all, of the team members leave the firm.

At what point does it become unethical for a firm to represent itself as having "done" a specific project?

When [green]50%[/green] of the original team is no longer with the firm?
At [red]75%[/red]?
At [blue]90%[/blue]?

Yes, the corporation was the contracting entity that provided the professional services, but when no one is left at the firm can they (or should they) ethically tell other potential clients that they "did" that project?

And on the flip side, for those who left the firm, can they lay claim to having that project as one they can advertise as representative of their experience since it was their previous firm's project?

 

[MadMango]

Regardless of who is still employed, it does not change the fact that The Firm "did" (completed) a specific project/program. It might be unethical for a company that no longer has those available resources (manpower, knowledge) to advertise that The Firm is still capable of doing similar projects/programs.

I hate semantics.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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[zdas04]

I saw a great example of this. There was a very successful field project that was the brain child of an engineer at a local firm. He later left and started his own firm. A few years later I was getting bids on a similar project and got two different company CV's that each claimed full credit for the same project. Neither one felt very sanitary to me. The original firm (it turns out) had been so denuded of talent that they would have been incapable of completing my project. If the new firm had said "Principal completed XYZ project while at ABC Engineering" I would have hired them because the principal was pretty sharp. Instead they said "Responsible for XYZ project". I never considered either company for any work after that.

David

 

[jmw]

On the other hand, isn't that just how the major contracting houses operate?
Quote a project e.g. ethylene plant, boiler plant etc, at a standard price (the last price plus escalation) and then go out and recruit the necessary staff.

The staff know they are there for the contract only and know they may be in and out of the same company as often as they get contracts for the same plant.

What counts isn't who they have employed at the time, who is left from the last time and who isn't but whether, if they get the contract, they can put together just as good a team again and if they can deliver the finished project to everyones satisfaction.

I dealt with a project engineer about one instrument and he told me that the instrument in the spec. that never works and every time they bid the job they know they will tear this instrument out and replace it later on. But, changing the spec wasn't something anyone was about to do because once started down that road they'd end up with an unknown quantity. Plus it just wasn't cost effective to change the original spec, the procurement plans etc. etc. Fixing it at the end was the simplest and cheapest solution.

So, it may well be justified for a company to show its past successes even if none of the original team are left because in theory, if they get the job, they'll get the people they need.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SomptingGuy]

The company I work for must put more effort into knowledge management and retention than previous posters' companies. Project team members dream up and implement new methods on nearly every project. The methods live on beyond the employment of that individual, whether it's a shift to a different department or division, or a move elsewhere. Admittedly there are often individuals with special talents in certain niche areas, but nobody in irreplaceable.

One of the teams in my department (responsible for CFD software development) has none of the original members that were there when I started, even the original founder of that software is elsewhere. Yet it retains the same look and feel and follows the same ethos as it always has. Likewise the guys elsewhere in the organisation that use this software in project work - not a single one is original (whatever that means).

The teams have gradually transitioned - like a society does, passing built-up knowledge and experience from older members to younger members. Except that it's formal for us.

- Steve

 

[zdas04]

StompingGuy,
I sounds like you work in an organization that is large enough to have policies and procedures for project execution that don't depend on the originator being in the room for success. Good for you.

Very few 3-5 engineer firms have that (most are populated with people who ran from companies like yours to find a place that "gave them some space to innovate" or some other horse crap, new age, catch phrase). When you're working with small firms, the personality and ability of one individual is often the difference between project success and failure. When that guy leaves, he leaves a void that is rarely filled by the survivors. Just like I have changed barbershops several times to follow a specific barber, I've been known to change consulting firms to follow a specific engineer, or law firms to follow a specific attorney.

David

 

[SomptingGuy]

David,

I guess the automotive industry is different. OEMs and tier ones rarely give big jobs to small outfits. They normally demand ISO (quality assurance) certification too. If you follow the spirit of the quality assurance (traceability, learning from mistakes, improvement plans etc) instead of seeing it as a paperwork jungle it really does add value in the long term. The audits are still a bit scary though!

Some of our indivdual teams are small. A small development project may only have 2-3 engineers assigned. But the customers hardly ever comment on an individual, they just see the company name, history and reputation.

Requests for engineers by name are generally for off-site supporting roles: "Please supply <state your name> for 6 months".

- Steve

 

[graybeach]

When evaluating consultant proposals, I take the company experience with a grain of salt and look carefully at the resumes of the individuals proposed to do the work. As zdas04 points out - it is the person not the company that makes or breaks a project.

 

[EddyC]

I wouldn't even trust the resumes of the individuals that are proposed to do the work. I worked in one company that used to put names of folks that weren't even employees in the company proposals. Another employer of mine used to constantly submit my credentials to prospective customers, but I never got to work on any of those projects. Companies will do anything to get work.

 

[zdas04]

Steve,
In Oil & Gas, I'm having a hell of a fight to get any engineering done on onshore gas fields--typically the wellsite facilities and gathering systems were "designed" by a Production Foreman (who has 70 other things on his mind) and a kid on a truck. When engineering is done, most companies come to people like me (an engineering "firm" with one engineer who also does accounting, taxes, IT, and sweeps the floor). If I sold the name of my company to someone else, the firm's reputation would last exactly one phone call and the poor schmuck that bought it would have to begin building his own goodwill immediately.

The company I worked for before starting this firm went through ISO 9001 certification (it is a Brit oil company), and tried to impose it on our suppliers and consultants. Talk about a train wreck. We finally ended up in the position that if we wanted any work done we used "uncertified" suppliers and contractors. If we insisted on ISO 9001 from our suppliers they just said "there is plenty of work without that nonsense" and stopped returning our calls. It is tough to implement process and procedure in a boom market.

David

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

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