Material selection & industry standards 1

[bbshop]

Hi,

I'm looking for a database, cheat sheet, selection tool, etc... that you can use to help in defining material callouts on drawings. i.e. I want to spec 6061-T6 aluminum & I want to know all of the applicable industry standards that help to define that material. Anyone know of anything?

 

[EdStainless]

Which standards do you usually work with?
Each system has its own rules, ASTM, AMS, SAE, and AA, that is just US based.
What design rules do you have to follow (allowable stress)?
What product forms are you looking at?


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

 

[3DDave]

All of them? One method is to ask suppliers what standards they conform to. Do not depend on what they say as being usable for the callouts; it's just to get an idea of which specs you need to obtain. The specs will have the details of the correct callouts and what they mean which suppliers sometimes don't have in their sales literature.

 

[XL83NL]

Do not depend on what they say as being usable for the callouts; it's just to get an idea of which specs you need to obtain. The specs will have the details of the correct callouts and what they mean which suppliers sometimes don't have in their sales literature.

Well said

 

[3DDave]

I had a program where someone said stuff like Steel per ASTM D-WXYZ. Which covered about 100 alloys from 30ksi to 200ksi.

 

[XL83NL]

CES Selector? Stahlschlussel?

 

[WKTaylor]

bbs...

In aerospace material... and associated fabrication process callouts... usually get VERY specific, to ensure consistent/repeatable material as intended, like this...

Alloy/temper [initial] + temper [during/after any follow-on heat-treatments or processing-forming-etc...

Heat treatment and NDI requirements [must include explicit specifications how-to]

Exact procurement specification + type, class, etc...

FORM [plate, bare-sheet, clad-sheet, extrusion, forging, casting, etc...]

Special qualities and/or inspection requirements [ultrasonic inspection, FPI, MPI, etc... to meet specific expectations... including destructive testing and metallurgical examinations if/as required.

NOTE. Material-lab Certifications MUST validate material meets physical, chemistry, metallurgical requirements.

Raw-stock definition
Plate, sheet strip, etc = Thickness x Width x Length [min-to-max allowed]
Extrusion = profile/shape x Length [min-to-max allowed]
Drawn shape = cross-section X Length [min-to-max allowed]
Billet
etc...

NOTE.
IF optional materials/tempers/forms/etc are appropriate/acceptable then each of these options must be fully defined, as noted.

NOTHING is ever left to amateur guess-work or imagination or experience or 'best shop practices'... unless there is a very clear SOP on how to 'proceed'.

NOTE. FAA considers manufacturing parts [replacement and repair] is so critical, that specialized training is required with sign-off... since average mechanics simply don't understand how materials + fabrication processes critically affect airworthiness of finished parts. AC43-18 Fabrication of Aircraft parts by Maintenance Personnel...

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

 

[Metalero]

Ashby's Method

book:

https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=K4h4CgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_selection

 

[WKTaylor]

I just noted something...

Title of this thread... 'Material selection & industry standards'

What the OP actually asked... "... defining material callouts on drawings" [essentially]
----------

'Material selection' is an engineering discipline... a major/not-simple topic-area for long-discussions.

'Material callout [C/O] on drawings' is a topic area that is far simpler than 'material selection'.
----------

Using 6061-T6 as an example... how I answered the question... RE: as definition for application to a drawing [PL C/O]...

6061-T6...
sheet?
plate?
extruded shape?
drawn bar/rod/shape?
wire?
die forging?
hand forging?
etc?

Aerospace?
Industrial/GP?

what dimensions?

what's it used for? additional quality checks needed on raw stock, etc?

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

 

[bbshop]

Thank you WKTaylor. What you deduced is much closer to what I'm looking for. I'm not trying to figure out "what" material to use for "what" situations. What I'm trying to discern is all of the different ways folks list material in the title blocks of their drawings. Do you have internal specs written to get very specific regarding grade, hardness, etc... or do you defer to already written & defined industry standards? I've worked at places that did one or the other, sometimes both, with not a lot of success. What I'm really looking for is some reference that will quickly link an industry standard to a particular material. i.e.6061-T6 Aluminum/Alloy Rod & Bar - ASTM B 211. That's what I'm specifically trying to find.

 

[XL83NL]

If you're purchasing ASTM material, the standard itself often specified how material shall be purchased or marked.

 

[bbshop]

Thank you XL83NL for your response but that's not at all what I'm asking. I'm not looking for how to purchase anything, or mark it. I'm looking for how you indicate what material a part is made from in the title block of it's drawing. If you want to specify that your part is made from 6061-T6 Aluminum, what do you say in the material section of your drawing title block? 6061-T6 Aluminum per ASTM B 211, 6061-T6 Aluminum per your company's internal spec, etc... And IF you specify 6061-T6 per ASTM B 211, where did you look to determine that it was that actual industry standard?

 

[XL83NL]

I mostly work in piping and tubing. If I need a reducing tee for a B31.3 piping job, in 316, I'd specify Reducing Tee, ASTM A403 WP-316-316L-S, ASME B16.9 6"x3", 40S. Refer to ASTM A403, para 15 and table 6
I understand your question, but I think it greatly depends on the industry you work for, and any applicable design codes and standards.

The example above can also be used for ASME BPV applications, but then I would have to add the applicable ASME SA or SB edition (though B31.3 also specifies, it's not controlled that strictly). Hence, it depends on the applications (and thus industry)

I have no experience with aluminium, but the ASTM standards are pretty straight forward. Also, one advantage of using standard parts is that a lot of things are predefined, which is easy compared to custom items.

And IF you specify 6061-T6 per ASTM B 211, where did you look to determine that it was that actual industry standard?

Not sure if I totally get your question, but Id say the design code determines the applicable edition of B211 to be used.

 

[MJCronin]

Industry hires engineers who devote entire careers as materials and coatings specialists.

An entire library can be devoted to Codes, Standards and materials specifications .... with today's international marketplace, there are also foreign and country specific standards. These all get revised and changed ...

This is a complex and ever-changing body of knowledge .... even for just aluminum

.... and you want a "database, cheat sheet, selection tool" that will address ALL OF THESE CASES ?



MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[Metalero]

Check the Matweb’s page

http://www.matweb.com

When you search for a material, multiples options appears and there is descriptions and a list for standards and denominations related to the same material, and of course, there is properties and technical information about.

 

[bbshop]

Thanks MJCronin! YES, I want it all!!! Can't blame a guy for trying. As for "ALL".., No! As for some help, in any direction, YES! I realize this is a giant topic with tons of subject matter but surely someone else has asked this same question before me, at least 10,000 times. This "topic" has been discussed at every company I've ever worked at, over a 41 year career. I'm just looking for ways to simply & common sense ways of representing this wealth of information.

 

[3DDave]

That last "41 year" bit would have been good way to start the question.

There probably isn't because every company has developed their individual ways of saying things because many of them pre-date the creation of the specs and fossilized their approach before the standard because widely distributed.

https://xkcd.com/927/

 

[bbshop]

3DDave! Thanks for the levity! Appreciate the humor from your link!

 

[mk3223]

IMO, the companies of the different industries have developed its own material data base used for the specific process and operation. I don't know if there is some does an effort to gather all the data bases in one place and posted them to the public for reference. Also, the knowledge and data base may belong to the Company confidential property and won't be shared publicly.

One can try to google it, and hope to find some useful of it. Good luck.