Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools 10

[possumk]

As people touched on in their responses to the male:female make-up of engineering departments, the men significantly outnumber the females. Many noted that even women who start in engineering often move to other business areas.

Here's my question: So what? What's so superior about engineering compared to other career choices women or men may make? Why should we care that women (or men) don't want to be engineers?

I think we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession. We tell ourselves that kids who transfer to the college of business just couldn't hack engineering. Is it possible that they realized they could make more money doing something else they enjoyed more? I'm as anti-BA in Psychology as any engineer, and really hate to read those people's posts on Monster.com, whining that they're unemployed. However, if you are smart enough to be an engineer, there are a lot of financially lucrative jobs that you could do.

So, why SHOULD we become & stay engineers?

 

[SomptingGuy]

they realized they could make more money doing something else they enjoyed more

Three things for a good career (roughly in order in my mind):

- Enjoyment
- Reward
- Respect

When I was in the graduate job market there were plenty of the Reward & Respect jobs for people with engineering qualifications. Not many scored on the enjoyment though for me. But everyone is different.

 

[TheTick]

There are plenty of reward and respect jobs for engineers, just not in engineering.

 

[SomptingGuy]

My point precisely. Should have made it clearer myself. My mates all fled into accountancy and law. At least law can be mentally challenging I suppose ... if you like that kind of thing and have no scruples.

 

[Ashereng]

As people touched on in their responses to the male:female make-up of engineering departments, the men significantly outnumber the females. Many noted that even women who start in engineering often move to other business areas.

Here's my question: So what? What's so superior about engineering compared to other career choices women or men may make? Why should we care that women (or men) don't want to be engineers?

I think we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession.

I agree with your sentiments. With regards to your question of "So what?", I think the answer is that "we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession.". I would also like to point out that this sentiment is not just engineers. I think every profession has a bit of the "superiority complex". Because we think we are the best, it may be that we are slighted somehow when someone (especially anothe engineer) forsake our profession for another.

Another reason may be that deep down, we may be a bit insecure, with the tought "Maybe engineering isn't as good as we've been led to believe?".

So, why SHOULD we become & stay engineers?

Speaking for myself, I think I should stay an engineer because I like the work for the most part, and more importantly, I think I am good at it (there is that superiority thing again) and I think that I can make a good living at it.

The other question not asked is "Why should SOMEONE ELSE become and stay an engineer?" My answer is that they should decide based on their own interests and convictions. Engineering is a profession, like many others. They are all valuable and rewarding.

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Albert Einstein
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[SylvestreW]

Honestly, I think a large part of the problem is that there's a lot of fields that are called engineering that really shouldn't be. There's also a lot of engineering doing work they call engineering that really isn't.

 

[KENAT]

SylvestreW now you're going to turn this into one of those "Anyone wanting to use the title Engineer should be PE/CEng" debates.

As to what ratio of men to women, who cares (well OK, at Uni a few more girls on the course would have had advantages)

One thing that does annoy me. A lot of people on my Aerospace Engineering course at uni had no real interest in Aerospace Engineering or even engineering at all. They either took it 'cause they were good at Math/Physics and wanted a challenge (Aero was purported to be the most difficult Engineering) or because it was looked on favorably by software and consultancy firms (e.g. while they normally required a 1st (A) or at least 2:1 (B) from most courses they’d take a 2:2 [B- or C, not quite sure] from aero).

This made if real difficult for someone like me who was smart but not genius level but really interested in aviation/engineering to 1. get on the course 2. stay on the course/get good grades in comparison with average.

Bear in mind this was UK where most of the costs were paid by the government, they were paying for people to learn engineering who had no interest in it.

Sorry, rant over.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[HgTX]

The reason to worry about male-to-female ratios is concern over whether there's something making engineering or engineering education more unpleasant for women than it is for men.

A look through other threads and other websites will tell you that yes, in fact, some prejudices and mistreatment do still exist. This may not tell the full story of the disproportion but it is part of it, which is why disproportion still bears looking at.

But since there are plenty of other threads and other websites discussing this matter, there's no need to get into it right here.

Hg

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[josephv]

I agree with Hg's sentiments. Will not say more, since there are other threads discussing this issue.

Now, to answer the question, "So, why SHOULD we become & stay engineers?"

A wise person once wrote in Eng-Tips, "I did not choose Engineering; Engineering chose me."

Having said that, perhaps another profession will "choose" me in the future, but for now I am glad doing what I do.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

If I ever find a job that is a better fit for me than engineering, I'm gone. Haven't found that job yet, so I'm still here.

I'm only an engineer 40 hours a week, anyways. The rest of the time I get to be something else.

 

[regalia]

"I think we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession."

HaHaHaHa! Because no one here has ever met a pompous doctor or lawyer right??

Engineering offers many lucrative possibilities. Heck, something like a third of fortune 500 CEOs have engineering degrees, and I assume started in engineering before they started advancing. Accountants who start as junior auditors would likely jump at management positions rather than stay where they are for the 'novelty' of being a 'public accountant'. I think engineers tend to be less enthusiastic about moving up in their company, as being in management will somehow make them less of an engineer. Maybe I'm just not as hardcore about engineering as some of you on here, but I think this is just nonsense.

There have been several comments in this threads indicating that lawyers may be better off. I don't think I know a single lawyer who doesn't hate what they do or is bored to death. I know more high paid VPs who started as engineers than I know rich lawyers.

 

[possumk]

I think it's great that so many of you really do enjoy engineering & feel it's the chosen profession for you.

I do not feel the same, although I wish I did because life would be easier. I also have many co-workers who do not feel the same, based on our day-to-day conversations.

I think those of us who fall into the for money-not-love category of engineering professionals may have been convinced to choose engineering for the wrong reasons (see KENAT'S response above). This is why I am sort of against these women-in-engineering recruitment bonanzas. I know many women I work with who studied engineering because of reasons other than loving engineering, and those "other reasons" don't seem to lead to long term career satisfaction. Now, another woman engineer here loves to work on cars, did field work for 7 years, & is as much of an engineer's engineer as any of the guys here, so I'm not saying all women are like me.

As for the prejudice that we need to fix that prohibits women from entering the field, I don't know anything about that. It wasn't my experience, so I won't speak for other women who felt that way. I personally was welcomed with open arms by both engineering schools I attended, and I have felt the same thing in industry. Any jerks I worked with didn't discriminate between men and women, they treated everyone poorly.

 

[HgTX]

My point is it is still out there. Not everywhere, so many women fortunately will never see it, but it's out there, and no amount of indvidual problem-free anecdotes will change that.

Hg

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[oldfieldguy]

Stuff that wasn't working when I got there, when I walked away, it was.

Where there was nothing at all, when I walked away, there's a fully operational manufacturing facility making product, providing jobs.

In my mind, this is more satisfying to my soul than moving columns of figures around a page.

old field guy

 

[SylvestreW]

"SylvestreW now you're going to turn this into one of those "Anyone wanting to use the title Engineer should be PE/CEng" debates."

Quite the opposite Kenat, I think there are too many PE/CEngs who *are* engineers but not *actually* doing engineering work. Ppl go for engineering degrees because it's a valuable degree (and rightfully so) but the fact is, most don't care a hoot about "engineering" things and really just want job security.

 

[KENAT]

Possumk, sorry to hear engineering isn't your thing and that you're regretting your choice, hopefully something will come up and you’ll find a more satisfying career path.

Do make sure it’s the Engineering you don’t like not your employer. If my current employer had been my first out of school I may have changed fields too! Also make sure it’s not some sub field of your specialty you find yourself in that you don’t like. For instance I’m not sure I’d find HVAC very interesting but loved Aerospace/Defense and machine design isn’t too bad.

I’m also glad you haven’t encountered discrimination, I have seen incidences that could be considered discrimination and have even been on the receiving end of what could be considered sexual harassment, but I don’t hold it against engineering.

My comment “As to what ratio of men to women, who cares” was in answer to the second paragraph of the OP, although re-reading the question it was perhaps a slight misdirection, sorry.

I believe for the most part we shouldn’t care if specific individuals, or even specific groups of people don’t want to be engineers, it’s their choice. The important thing is of course that they have that choice (see I do care about discrimination etc.), subject to having the basic aptitude etc. and that they have the information to make an informed decision. Recruitment drives that focus primarily on recruiting from specific groups of the population without consideration of factors such as basic aptitude/desire to be engineers are probably a bad idea in the long run. Measuring the number/% of any group in Engineering as a measure of discrimination seems a pretty blunt/inaccurate tool, or am I getting off topic now?

Now making sure we have enough engineers overall is worth spending a little time on although in a free market shouldn’t supply and demand take care of this.

As to why should we become/stay engineers.

How about the world needs us?

For example the Engineers that design sewage systems/waste water treatment plants etc. probably save more lives per year than all the Cardiac Surgeons put together. Certainly I recall seeing/hearing that back in the 19th century Engineers saved a lot more lives with these types of projects than all of medicine did.

Why is it that wanting to be a Doctor or Social Worker or Aid Worker because you want to make the world better/help people is readily accepted by most people (even if a bit trite) but if I said part of the reason I became an Engineer is to make the world better people (including me) would laugh.

Also if everyone went off to be a stock broker, market analyst, lawyer, accountant, management consultant, wheeler dealer etc. who would actually design, build, maintain things in order to generate the ‘wealth’ that these people pass around and recycle.

Hope I haven’t upset anyone this time.



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[KENAT]

Sorry SylvestreW your reply hadn't popped up yet when I submitted, I was joking when I put that opening line in my first post, should have put the smiley.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[sms]

"For example the Engineers that design sewage systems/waste water treatment plants etc. probably save more lives per year than all the Cardiac Surgeons put together. Certainly I recall seeing/hearing that back in the 19th century Engineers saved a lot more lives with these types of projects than all of medicine did."

And that is just the beginning, electricty, aircraft, automobiles, dams, roads, abodes, comodes, computers, a variety of chemicals and pharma products, agriculture, and on and on all have improved the well being of human kind, and all rely on engineers... Cardiac surgeons could not save anyone without us... We are a noble profession indeed.

I love it, and I make a great living at it.

(Counting down for the inevitable post that: SMS you are a naive fool , engineering sucks, and all engineers are miserable.. 5...4...3..)



"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

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[csd72]

sms,

You are right, the black plague was never 'cured' it was driven away by underground sewrage systems. I tell people this and many dont believe me.

As for the original post. I think it is the fact that engineers enjoy their jobs that keeps salaries lower than the more mundane professions like accounting and law.

If someone offered to pay me twice as much for something I enjoyed more then I would leave without a second thought.

csd

 

[electricpete]

As people touched on in their responses to the male:female make-up of engineering departments, the men significantly outnumber the females. Many noted that even women who start in engineering often move to other business areas.

Here's my question: So what? What's so superior about engineering compared to other career choices women or men may make? Why should we care that women (or men) don't want to be engineers?...I think we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession.[/

I don't agree with the pretense of your question. Reporting the fraction of women engineer in your company and their tendency to stay or go is not the same as claiming that any particular choice is superior to another. I don't see the link.

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