Methanol fuel safety? 2

[starspangled]

Hi guys,

I'm planning on using Methanol/Water injection in a Cummins 4BT diesel used for daily driving and possibly some long distance RV hauling. A friend gave me a plastic fuel cell out of his race car that meets NHRA specs. The most practical place to mount this 12 gallon tank is in the passenger compartment of the van.

What am I looking at on safety issues? It would be a 25/75 to possibly 50/50 methanol/water mix, water predominant. How hazardous is this dilute methanol? Would it be necessary to fabricate a metal enclosure for this tank?

I can't see anywhere else to mount the tank, unless possibly in the frame rails underneath. Suggestions?

Any commnets about water/meth injection in general are much appreciated as well. THANKS!

Starspangled

 

[evelrod]

To start, why? If you insist on using an old fuel cell to hold anything other than gasoline, you need to be sure to use the appropriate cell foam...alcohol and gas foam do not mix. I would use a metal containment, but then I would not be messing about with all this, either. All these schemes to alter preformance of that little ancient 4BT by propane, jet fuel, methanol, whatever injections...waste of energy, IMO.

Rod

 

[pennswoodsed]

HI,

The Dangers of methanol or methnol/blends are primarily as follows,

Fire-a I don't know where to find flash points at the moment for a blend,but highly flammable.
b Methanol burns with clear flames(reduced luminosity) extremely hard to manage fire.Flames are pratically invisible.
Toxicity a (fumes)200 ppm is the standard for atmospheric danger.Methanol is a neurotoxin in primates.
b (liquid) skin exposure methanol is corrosive and I believe capable of being absorbed through the skin.

My thoughts would be that I would not operate the vehicle with out external mounting .
Testing for calibration could be accomplished with a safe external stationary tank.
Safety Nazi? No, I don't believe in accidents.
Regards,Ed
ps 4bt in a van,what oem or conversion?

 

[starspangled]

Thank you gentlemen! Within the two posts is the simple answer: DANGER! I will not then use this container or store my fuel cell inside.

In regard to other: the engine is very low miles in excellent condition and could use the water/methanol injection to keep lower EGT's when towing and to provide slightly more power. There are other methods to accomplish this but overall cost eliminates them from serious consideration.

The engine is a conversion just completed, of a Cummins 4BT into a '67 Dodge D-100 Town Wagon, upgraded to approximately 1 ton ratings throughout, and with 5 speed NV4500 driving to Dana 60HD with 4.1 final. Everything but the frame and some body parts was upgraded and rebuilt for safety, efficiency and long term mechanical reliability. Good old truck....

Thanks for your assist!

 

[patprimmer]

If the water to methanol ratio is correct, it will not burn. i don't know from memory, but I think anything less than 50% alcohol won't burn. A test with a small amount in a cup would be simple enough.

Methanol water mixtures are corrosive of many plastic, rubbers, steel and aluminium, so system failures are probable if correct materials are not used throughout the system.

As Rod says, why bother. So what if EGT is at OEM design level.

To truely boost diesel performance, use a turbocharger if the engine is not already turbocharged. Increasing power above OEM output always has some risk of engine damage.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[starspangled]

Thanks, Pat, and good advice.

This is a 4BT so it does have a Holset H1C, which is quite a lot of turbo for the engine. I do have an upgrade compressor section that I'll be using and the actual need for further cooling hasn't been proven yet. Wanted to have some idea what I'm looking at. Under the circumstances explained in the replies I think I'll put water/meth on hold for a while and explore other avenues. Thanks!

 

[Fabrico]

We did a lengthy experiment involving several transit buses with methanol and 6V-92 Detroit Diesels about 12 years ago. What a pain. The fuel tanks and lines had to be stainless. The fuel had to be pumped by very special pumps and cooled as it recirculated. Any or all injectors would fail at any time. Most were DDEC but a couple were non-electronic. Ever seize an injector that is linked to the rest by a rack? Remote actuated air shut-off plates are a must have. The only ones the leasts bit happy were the tow companies.

 

[starspangled]

Thanks to all for your advice. Friends have water/meth injection and have been quite happy with it for higher performance uses. Kits are available with the proper pumps and fittings so it's a bolt-in setup and is quite reliable. Many use the windshield washer reservoir as holding tank or the kit's poly tank with no problems.

Regardless, from the flavor of the posts here I think it best to leave that stuff as a last option. I wanted to get your advice before talking myself into it! Seems best to see how it does stock when towing, then do the compressor stage upgrade, maybe turn some screws on the pump and open up the exhaust. I appreciate your instruction and advice.

By the way, being new to diesel I'm absolutely amazed by this little 3.9L as it has a much more useable and enjoyable stock power/torque curve than my previous 'built' 360! Thanks,

Starspangled

 

[r2800]

I would hazard a guess that all you want to do is to increase performance and reduce combustion temeratures if that is the case I would advise using only water with a dilute methanol screen wash aditive to prevent winter time freezing.
The discharge nozzle/s can be sited in the compressor inlet or adjacent to the ports on the manifold and be pressurised by a heavy duty screen wash pump which is activated by a pressure switch sensed by boost pressure.
atomisation is dependant on jet size and pump pressure either of which can be optimised to suit.

 

[starspangled]

Thanks for the advice, 22800. That's exactly what I intend to do. My truck is a daily driver but that may turn into months at a time of hauling an RV around. Just as you suggest, I need power and EGT reduction. I've located the correct pump at an affordable price, plus the appropriate injector jets. Because of towing use I would need a comparatively large tank for water/meth @ 75/25 dilution.

Though I was given a very nice 12 gallon racing fuel cell I can't access filler cap with it mounted in frame under body. Looks like I have to spring for another no matter what. So, I'll either buy or fabricate an external tank and then do as you and others have suggested. Thanks!

Starspangled

 

[r2800]

I notice you still intend to use methanol as a secondary fuel, you really won't need it for moderate output as the oxygen & hydrogen content in the water will be sufficient the greatest advantage will be the internal cooling effect and increased density.
Hope you don't mind me saying

 

[starspangled]

Yes, good point. From what I understand the water itself may slightly increase power, plus allowing for more aggresive fueling from the injector pump and injectors. If I used methanol in dilution it would most likely be used for 'play' purposes for those times that we boys will be boys.

I have no doubt the little 3.9 Cummins will be sufficient in stock config. for most towing and driving needs. I will turn it up some simply because there's far more power to be had and still have a very reliable and long lasting engine. I think it's 105HP/285 torque stock and I'd like to see maybe 130-140HP/350-375 torque. With only H2O for cooling that's still conservative. An occassional mix of methanol would be just for fun.

I learn more and more about this 4BT daily so the plan changes some, but regardless I will stay well on the conservative side. I want it to last a very long time. Thanks for the further tip, r2800!

 

[jblaine]

starspangled: Go for it. Cost is really the only inhibitor. Injecting water or a mixture is not complicated, but will cost you $600-$1000 to do properly or around $400 to do "pretty well".

Inject a highly atomized mixture (or just distilled water) at about 20% of your fuel mass (starting as engine load increases significantly) and tune the spark timing. Don't buy a pump that is rated at less than 125psi.

As far as corrosiveness goes: Plumb appropriate materials and maintain them as needed. Not a big deal, really. And no, you certainly do not need a metal tank for a 50/50 mixture or less.

Don't forget, by the way... the lower your EGTs are, the less energy your EGs are imparting to the turbine

HANDLING: Be CAREFUL. Pure methanol is toxic. Search for the MSDS sheet on it.

I don't mean this flippantly, but there are approximately 43,904 papers on this topic from the last 60 years. Hit up Google, search for "diesel water injection", and carefully select worthwhile material to read.

Have fun! This road is well-traveled by enthusiasts with excellent results over many years of use.

 

[starspangled]

Thanks, jblaine! As the research deepens the picture actually becomes clearer. One must be careful to take the upgrades in the proper order it seems. Too much fuel with too little compressor and exhaust means high EGT's. So, I figure I'll do my turbo compressor [inducer] upgrade first, then turbo exhaust upgrade to 4" starting at exducer outlet, then install water/meth injection and only at this point test to see what fuel the system wants.

Thanks for the tip on methanol toxicity as it is some nasty stuff! At 25%/75% meth-water it's apparently very safe, and 50%-50% is used by many for performance. I've located the proper pump and injector nozzles. For now it waits for other upgrades to be installed first, step by step. Thanks again!

Starspangled

 

[sprintcar]

Methanol can blind you if you get it in your eyes, along with the other dangers pointed out. Most of the affordable methanol available in the US is recycled from textile mill wash circuits and may contain very small fibers. These can plug small nozzles and filters. I was running a 100 mesh inline filter for the race motor and it kept plugging with something from the fuel. You couldn't see it, but it took carb cleaner and compressed air to remove it. I changed to a 60 mesh and just let it pass - problem solved.

You might want to include the proper fire extingusher in your vehicle and near your fueling/mixing area also.

Timing has an awful lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

 

[starspangled]

"Timing has an awful lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance." Ha hah! Can I quote you, that's great?!

MOST interesting on the methanol fibers. I have never seen a single mention of that before. This could explain why many guys complain, "Hey, I installed W/M and it seemed like it worked, but now it's gotten flaky..." For others they had relatively poor results from the start. I'll be sure to check orifice size and use a 60 micron filter, thanks much!

Personally I don't think ultra-small droplet size is too terribly critical if injection occurs early in the compressor outlet tract. By the time that gas mixture gets blown down the pipes, slammed through a couple of curves, and shoehorned into the actual intake manifold it should be pretty well mixed one way or another.

Safety is hugely important here, as I was once in the fire safety business, a very serious business, and have already been poisoned for life by toxic chemicals. Most carry a 2 1/2 lbs ABC extinguisher and call it good. I prefer a couple of 10lbs B/C, thanks! I want to look into an additive to colorize the flame in case of fire, though it seems doubtful a 50/50 mix with water would ever light?

Thanks for some great tips!

Starspangled

 

[evelrod]

I've spent many hours in various safety courses at just about every refinery in the LA area during the 80's so I, too, have a pretty good handle on the things I have been comtaminated with from asbestos to benzene. Methanol was never a biggie for me. I used it in my hillclimb bike for several years (50:1 mix of methanol/degummed caster oil) and found it fairly safe to use with a little common sense and normal safety precautions, goggles, gloves, etc. If you are one of those types that tend to syphon gas from you car's fuel tank with a vacuum cleaner or check to see the fuel level with a match, I'd steer clear of even the 50/50 mix! ;o) LOL

Rod

 

[starspangled]

Ha HAH! Thanks, Rod! I'll be checking the MSDS of course, but cut 50% with H2O it shouldn't be terribly bad I don't suppose.

Too bad that with a chemical exposure one often doesn't find out until too late! I had no idea that day as I worked that this was my last job and that I would end up 100% disabled for life with health problems I never dreamed of. So, word to the wise who might read this. READ THE LABEL AND READ THE MSDS.

But on a happier note, there's just nothing quite like the odor of combusted castor oil wafting in the breeze, LOVE IT! Always reminds me of old Alfa, Bristol, Lancia, Coventry, Maserati, Ferrari cars with big wire spoked wheels. Ah, well, progress [?].

Thanks,
Starspangled