Mixed Residential Basement (Car Park + Living Quarters) 1

[EnOm]

Hi.
I have a large mansion with a rather large basement. The basement floor slab is at -9 ft and the basement ceiling slab is at +3 ft. The basement is divided between:
1- A car park (5800 ft²). Access is through a single entrance/exit ramp.
2- Residential Quarters. Bedrooms, kitchen, storage rooms...etc (8600 ft²). Access is through an elevator that goes up to the ground floor, and also through doors that open to the car park.
The local authorities do not require anything more than portable fire extinguishers, but the client requested we propose some extra protection but did not specify anything specific.

I am thinking of the following
1- Automatic sprinklers only in the car park area only, under Ordinary Hazard One
2- Automatic sprinklers only throughout the entire basement floor. Car Park: Ordinary Hazard One. Living Areas: Light Hazard
I'm not really considering adding an automatic hose reel.

All thoughts are welcome.

Best Regards.

 

[cdafd]

How about sprinklers through out the entire house

Owner sounds like he wants to protect the investment

 

[EnOm]

cdafd,
Thank you for the response. The owner's representative explicitly stated in his letter that the fire protection is to be in the basement floor. And yes, his investment is very much worth protecting. It's a massive building. Any thoughts on the basement protection?

Regards.

 

[cdafd]

Not a designer or FPE

technically can install a 13d system

Were you planning on a separate tap at the street?

 

[LCREP]

Reach out to the insurance carrier and ask what they want. They may ask for the entire home to be sprinklered. At the very least they will give you guidance and answer your questions.

 

[msquared48]

A Halon system might work if the air handling system for the vehicle storage area is a separate system from the living area. You would also have to have to have a quick way out for anyone in the area and a delay in the activation of the system to allow a timely egress.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[LCREP]

Halon?... Really?.. We can not get computer rooms tight enough to hold the concentration of the gas needed to extinguish a fire. All it takes is one door or window to be open and the fire will not be controlled. Also halon does have some environmental concerns, like it is banned in Europe. Install a sprinkler system that is the way to go.

 

[chicopee]

Forget the Halon system, I would recommend water sprinkler protection or the installation of hard wired fire/smoke detection system, or both.

 

[EnOm]

cdafd,
Thank you for your response. What do you mean by "a different tap at the street"?

LCREP,
Thank you for your response. You are correct. I will see to it.

msquared48,
Thank you for your response. As LCREP said, I don't think Halon is a good idea here.

chicopee,
Thank you for your response. The Fire Alarm system has already been considered, its being done by another engineer. I'm supposed to do the sprinklers.

Thank you all for the responses. my supervisor asked me to design 2 options. One where the sprinklers protect the vehicle parking area only, and the other where the entire basement floor is protected by sprinklers, and see what the client decides.

 

[cdafd]

Is there going to be a water tap for the domestic and a water tap for the sprinkler system at the street

You all are in the fire sprinkler installation business ??

 

[EnOm]

cdafd,
Thank you for your response. Ah, by "water tap" you mean connection to the government main, right? If so, the domestic water supply will be supplied by the government main, but the sprinklers will be fed from a private water tank along with fire fighting pumps. The tank would be filled initially from the government main.

I'm not in the installation business, I work at a design consultant.

 

[cdafd]

Suggest you hire a FPE or at least a fire sprinkler company to advise you

A few variables on this

 

[TravisMack]

Relatively simple questions you have to ask:

Is this for life safety and property protection, or just for life safety.

If for life safety only, you can utilize NFPA 13D as this is technically a 1-2 family dwelling unit. It may be a real stretch to go there, but it is just a house - a very large one. If you want a bit more protection, design per NFPA 13R. The only real difference is criteria for protection of areas outside of the dwelling unit, garages and number of sprinklers per compartment to calculate.

If it is for property protection, then you need to go to a FULL NFPA 13 system. At that point, you do OH1 in the parking area and light hazard in the living spaces. You would also need heads in all combustible concealed spaces.

Since it seems like this is not a required system, pick and choose what the owner wants. The system in my home (no where near this size) is a modified NFPA 13D. I put heads in my garages, closets and bathrooms that are not required per NFPA 13D.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[EnOm]

cdafd,
Thank you for your response.

TravisMack,
Thank you for your response. That was very helpful.

The project was pushed down the priority list, I'll see what can be done once I'm asked to get back to working on it. However,Thank you for the help.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Insurance may, or may not, be in the equation.

If I had a worth of $1 billion I don't think I care about insurance on a $10 million dollar house one way or the other. I got a feeling the owner is looking more to protect the contents than the house itself.

I would consider presenting a NFPA #13 double interlocked preaction system throughout all areas of the house. Even at $25/sq ft (outside a nuke plant I have never hears of something that high) in a house like this the owner might not flinch a bit.

You and I might flinch but the owner probably won't or he wouldn't be building this house. The advantages are many as we know with the chance of accidental discharge being minimal to non-existent. If you were building a house, and money was not an object, what would you want?

He's the owner, I would give him three or four options letting him select the one he likes.

 

[cdafd]

Double interlock is a little extreme

Are you saying use a sprinkler head to fuse and detection to get water?

 

[stookeyfpe]

A 14,400 square foot house is also extreme in my world.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

cdafd,

I dunno but I would take the position that I am not the one to answer that. If the owner has two Picasso's and a Rembrandt valued at $1.3, $1.6 and $2.75 million each on the wall of his study is it a little extreme? If they were my paintings you should at least give me the option so I can be the one to make that decision.

I can't tell you who it was for but a number of years ago I did a residence on Sea Island, Georgia out on the coast. People are unaware of it but Sea Island is the third wealthiest zip code in the United States making rich places in California look like poverty central. Lot's of old money here it sits.just across the straight a couple miles from Jekyll Island which is the poorer section of the Georgia coast.

I got called out to a house where I ended up installing a double interlocked system because in one room he had a world premier collection of something that would first make you laugh when you learned what it was followed by a mouth drop when you learned of its value. We're talking lots of money here.

I carefully explained all the options and pitfalls to the owner and he was the one who decided double interlocked.

Putting it another way if you had something you could fit in two display cases that had a value of $6 million that could be irrecoverably damaged by a quart of water what would you want me to do? As the owner that is your decision to make and not mine.

 

[MatthewL]

stookeyfpe,

14,400 is ONLY the basement. Still have minimum of one more floor to go. Given that size, it's probably 2 main level floors. Extreme is an understatement.

Matt

Quality, quantity, cost. Pick two.

 

[cdafd]

Maybe there needs to be a "nfpa 13 McMansion" standard