moonlighting and ethics 14

[oceana1234]

First the background....EIT with solid autocad drafting skills.

Btw, I still have to study and take the ethics exam which is why I'm asking the question here.
So be kind, please....

I used to do occasional moonlighting when I was a draftperson/technician. Drafting in other disciplines not related to the job. Out of curiosity, how many people here have moonlighted? Does it cause you any conflicts?
It seems like a common practice even though most places specify that they do not allow moonlighting. I have never seen enforcement of this rule.

So, I been asked to do some drafting for an engineer. He used to work at my current place of employment.
The project is in another jurisdiction, where chicken wire solutions seem to be the order of the day....
sorry I'm being a little glib here.

This involves doing some shop drawings which he will approve as part of one of his projects.
He claims that there is no conflict of interest for him.
Isn't the manufacturer responsible for the design of the piece of work?
Doesn't production and signing of said "shop drawings" represent a conflict of interest or more to the point
a liability problem for the project design engineer?

I was provided with sample drawings of what was expected and the current design drawings.

When we met, I mentioned that I would only be providing him with a preliminary and that he would obviously have to
revise, since I was providing him with drafting work and not doing design work. This type of design work is outside of my expertise.

After a preliminary review of shop drawings samples with the associated project drawings, I cannot feel confident as to certain dimensions and connection details for the work. These would obviously be part of the manufacturer's expertise.

I really feel uncomfortable doing this side contract. I feel obligated, because I said I do it, plus he's an experienced engineer and I would call him a friend and definite possible reference

Now, that I am an EIT, am I exposing myself to any future problems?

Any advice on how to handle the situation? How do I get out of it?

 

[JAE]

Most employers do not want their employees doing moonlighting work because ANY work you do for another entity exposes your employer to litigation, despite the fact that you are doing the work for another entity. And their insurance provider may not (and probably will not) insure them against work you did outside of their corporate structure.

This is a very serious issue for your main employer. I would check with them if possible but I would guess they'd ask you not to do such things.

 

[rholder98]

I agree. Your first priority should be to your current employer, and making sure you abide by their policies. Additionally, read the laws and rules of your state board for guidance on ethical issues. If nothing else, when faced with a gray area, always err on the side of caution.

 

[RDK]

I’m most likely the most vocal about my belief that moonlighting for an engineer is practically impossible to do in an ethical manner.

Even there is no current conflict what about potential future conflicts? Perhaps someday your employer will be involved in a project where the moonlighting employer would be sitting across the table, perhaps using your work product.

How would you respond if the current employer was arguing against the validity of your work project? Perhaps not even the current employer but someone else on that project team.

Where would your loyalties lie in that case?

What is the moonlighting employer needed a quick answer to a question regarding the work product? Would you take the call on time that you have sold to your current employer? How about a quick modification to the drawing? Would you do that at the current employer’s workplace and e-mail it back on the current employer’s computers?


Where are you doing the work? After hours at the current work location? Whose AutoCAD will you be using? A copy licensed to the current employer?

If you needed a reference to check up on some aspect of the work would you use the current employer’s material or internet connection to look it up?


Would you want the full range of your activities known to your current employer?

It would only be ethical if you were doing this with the full knowledge and permission of the current employer.

As a general rule if you are uncomfortable doing it, it is unethical.

Ethics are what keep us honest when no one is looking.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[IRstuff]

I'll have to disagree with RDK on his first point. If your manager or company was aware of your extracurricular activities with this other company, your conflict of interest would already be accounted for. This issue comes up only because you failed or continue to fail to reveal your conflict of interest. Thus, this ethical "dilemma" arises because you were already unethical.

If YOU are ethical, then there is no issue. You simply recuse yourself from the decision, citing a conflict of interest. Countless judges, Alito, not withstanding, do this on a regular basis. The work CAN be done ethically. If all the particulars are out in the open and everyone is aware of and accepts your situation then there can't be an issue. These issues only arise because someone lied by omission, i.e., they were unethical to begin with.

We used to have a yearly conflict of interest form to fill out wherein we listed all potential conflicts of interest. Too bad it went away.

TTFN

 

[stevenal]

An additional thought to the above:
Most of us are considered to be exempt from overtime payment. Our existing salaries are intended to cover any additional hours needed. A conflict could arise where the extra pay moonlighting obligation might conflict with a non-extra pay obligation to the principal employer.

 

[buzzp]

I would of asked them up front. Since its drafting work, they should have no problem letting you. I would be tempted to do it anyway, regardless of whether they wanted me to or not (after I asked them). I would only do this if I knew there would be no conflict of interest, and it sounds like there is not. Some companies will not approve any moonlighting work regardless of the circumstances. This just shows they don't really give a rip about you. Why not approve moonlighting if there is no way it can impact their company? They just turn down all moonlighting then they don't have to deal with determining potential impacts on their company.

I look out for my interests when it comes to employers. They will not look out for you like the old days, its a dog eat dog world and if you hang on to the fallacy that an employer is looking out for you, then you will be disappointed. This is not to say I look for a way to give them the shaft.
There is no liability with you making these drawings. You are a drafter (or designer if you prefer - same thing)in this case so your not liable for anything, the engineer is. Just point out your concerns in the drawings so he knows.
I will get hammered with this post. Let the blows begin.

 

[wes616]

Well I agree with Buzzp, and IRstuff with this one.

Personally, I work as a contractor, so I can, do (within limits) what I want, when I want. I make sure that the companies I contract with understand the difference between me (as a contractor) and a direct employee. Legeally, there are differences.

I personally feel, that unless there is a direct conflict of interest, then I may work for whomever I want... and I do. I work for 1 company, as my primary contract for 40+ hrs a week. I also do work for 2 other companies (from my home, with liscensed software) in the evenings and weekends.

I made sure to let these secondary companies know when I am available. If they wish to contact me, then I will gladly take their calls, during these time periods. (example would be while I am at lunch during the day) or evenings (I always give myself 1 hr buffer between my expected day end at my primary and when I can be available to the secondaries).

Try and not see yourself as an employee, but as a vendor providing a service to your company. For example, if you owned your own Surveying Company, no one would expect you to not work on Highway 1 with contractor A, if you were working on Bulding site 2 with contractor B.

If you are honest, and upfront, and are willing to recuse yourself when there IS a conflict of interest, then go for it.

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[Ashereng]

I’m most likely the most vocal about my belief that moonlighting for an engineer is practically impossible to do in an ethical manner.

Actually, I would vote that you are the most vocal. ;-)

I agree with RDK. And actually, oeceana1234, I think you do too.

It seems like a common practice even though most places specify that they do not allow moonlighting. I have never seen enforcement of this rule.

I am not one to argue ethics (can't win proposition). I am a stickler on legality. If you signed an employment contract, I suggest that you check it. Most employment contracts expressly exclude you doing any work in the field of your employer. This means that Starbucks is okay, drafting, not so much.

If your employment contract does not exclude you working in the same field, then, it is legal. Do as you wish.

By the way, lack of enforcement does not make it legal.

 

[whyun]

Being too tired to work efficiently at your primary work due to long hours of moonlighting is unethical.

 

[RDK]

IRStuff

I did go on to say that if the current employer was informed and agreed to the work that there would not be a conflict of interest.

As an independent consultant, working in a small market, I often run into possible conflict situations. When I become aware of them I make sure to inform all parties of the potential conflict and offer to withdraw from the assignment. Only if all parties agree to my continued work will I continue.

If I have to withdrawal I also take pains not to charge anyone for the time spent, usually not a major concern as the conflict is apparent quickly in the process.

If everyone is aware and in agreement then the only ethical concern would be local state rules. I would be surprised if they did not allow moonlighting to continue if all parties were informed and in agreement that the work would be allowable.

When I was working for the government and had many people reporting to me I had simple rules regarding outside work. If for a charity then it was allowable to do so in slack time and have limited use of the supplies, if a favor for a friend type of work not for pay then OK to use the office but not any supplies or work time, if for profit then no way was the individual allowed to use the office, equipment or supplies. They also were not allowed to take any phone calls or ask anyone else any questions regarding the work up to and including using work reference books.

Shortly before I started there there was a major issue where one of the draftsmen had been advertising drafting services and putting the work phone number in the local paper. Needless to say the local draftsman who made his living on this quickly put in a call to his MP and the individual soon left the Canadian Armed Forces on an involuntary basis. (He had a history with doing this sort of thing so it was not the first time he had been disciplined.)


Ashereng

I would agree with you that I am number one but did not want to blow my own horn. :-D

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[UcfSE]

I agree with buzzp. Cover your rear, don't violate any laws or anything to which you have already agreed, but by all means if you need to make more money then do so, and do so how you want. You have to look out for you because no one else will do it for you, and definitely not your employer.

As an EI, you are not subject to all of the same rules and penalties that a professional engineer would be. They can, however, resurface years later and haunt you. It would be like doing something wrong that you can't be punished for, but everyone knows you did it. That's not a good feeling. Have you discussed how uncomfortable you are with this engineer for whom you are working? If this person were a good engineer and a friend I would think he or she would be more than happy to explain things. Maybe your feeling is the result of a misunderstanding. If not, and you still are as uncomfortable as you are doing the work, then back out and return whatever you have been paid if need be. Again, you have to look out for you because no one else will do it for you.

whyun - Would my actions be unethical if I were too tired due to studying late, or playing or anything else, or is it just if I were too tired because I was working elsewhere to support my family?

That makes it sound as though my employer is #1 in my life, and I cannot agree with that thinking. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

 

[EddyC]

oceana1234,

I believe that you indicated that you are doing shop drawings for your friend. You also indicated that you don't feel comfortable with the dimensions indicated on the drawings. In my past experience with shop drawings, the responsibility for the dimensions did not belong to the engineer. You may wish to consider this.

A friend of mine used to moonlight. But he was working in the world of industry (manufactured products), which is a greatly varied and voluminous world, where one could achieve anonymity easily. And the engineering he did while moonlighting was a world apart from what he did on his primary job. His primary employer would merely try to somehow steal his ideas & designs from him if he so informed them of his extracurricular activities.

I don't think that the Civil Engineering community is one where anonymity would be as easily achieved as my friend did out in industry. I would therefore caution you about not informing your employer.

 

[UNLengineer]

Although your employer is not #1 in your life, you are being paid to be productive while at work. Whether you are tired from moonlighting or antyhing else, you are stealing time from your employer.

 

[buzzp]

Boy, now I can't go to work tired because I may not be as productive regardless of why I am tired? I want you guys to work for me. I find it hard to believe that anyone would give there employer such consideration. Tell your friends you have leave your softball game early to make sure your productive at work tomorrow. Now thats being dedicated. Fortunately, I have a life outside of work and don't intend to think about work 24hrs a day and the affect my actions may have on my employer (at least not about being tired for work tomorrow).

 

[oceana1234]

Thank you All...

I would like to thank you for a different perspective. Another engineer I spoke with was advising against telling anybody internally that I was taking on any drafting work...

My biggest ethical dilemma wasn't actually that much about the moonlighting....didn't think it was such a big deal for one little DRAFTING project. I didn't intend to be moonlighting as a regular activity....in my mind it was sorta like a one shot deal, help a friend, make a couple of bucks.

My concerns was with the work itself or being associated with a piece of work for which I do not believe the engineer, let alone myself has any expertise in.

So to maintain a good conscious, I will mention to someone in authority that I've taken one project for so and so...

ucfse---- thank you for the personal touch aspect of your response....I will adopt that attitude
I am considering simply providing a line and text drawing with empty annotation spaces to be filled in by the project engineer
not accepting compensation, calling it a favor, and chalking it up to experience


eddyc----"In my past experience with shop drawings, the responsibility for the dimensions did not belong to the engineer"
what if the engineer is making the manufacturer's shop drawings....don't the dimensions then become his responsibility?
or am I just nit picking?

buzz....I must be terribly unethical....cause I am going for a beer tonight

The point I guess always comes back to being able to look and smile at the person in the mirror.

Still wishing, I'd never stepped into this....

 

[RDK]

Buzzp

I do live my life in such a manner that I am ready and able to go to work and be productive.

The extension to your reasoning would be that it would be OK to go to work with a hangover that would kill a horse or even keep drinking all night right up to time to go to work.

Sorry but you have an obligation to your employer to show up for work on time and to be ready and able to perform the duties of your position when you get there.

Working another job or playing softball or any other reason is not grounds for showing up unable to work.

Of course in the real world employers realize that their employees are human and often have responsibilities and recreation outside of work that may occasionally make them less productive. But over the long term, if you are coming to work hung over don’t expect to have to worry about you job cutting into your drinking time for very long.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[JAE]

Why not approve moonlighting if there is no way it can impact their company? (per buzzp).

buzzp - I can certainly understand the concept of companies "not giving a rip about you" and all that. But ocean here may have a conflict in that his terms of employment originally negotiated with his/her employer may directly stipulate no moonlighting. If that is the case then moonlighting would be simply unethical as that was the aggreement that occurred at the point of hiring.

For the quote above, my point (way up above) was that moonlighting, in this litigious society, is always a risk to the company. If the shop drawings deal with a design that fails and hurts someone, either financially or physically, then the attorneys will and do sue everyone involved, including ocean's home company. And ocean would soon find out that the home company really doesn't give a rip about him/her.

Your other quote that caught my eye: There is no liability with you making these drawings.....well, it just caught my eye. Is there such a thing as "no liability" in our engineering work?

 

[RDK]

Is there such a thing as “no liability” in the USA for any business?





Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[whyun]

UcfSE,

Everyone has a family and that should be the priority in life.

What was getting at is, your primary income source pays you for a reason (your work). If outside work adversely affect your job performance, and you are collecting the same paycheck, you are shortchanging your employer. Sleeping during normal work hours due to fatigue from working 7PM to 2AM on side work at home definitely is unethical.

I wouldn't say being tired from studying, playing or doing personal things is unethical. It will show on your job performance so keeping a good balance is prudent.

Hopefully this clears things a bit.